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17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

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17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:12 pm

The siege of Pamplona has been progressing for two months. Marechal Mortier's V Corps has encircled the city and daily bombardments are causing mounting casualties among the Spanish garrison and civilians. Casualties have been steady for both sides; within the city the defenders lose men from artillery and small scale sallies and skirmishes; outside the French suffer from the defender's fire as well as sickness in their cold wet camps. Both sides are nearing exhaustion but the Spanish are faring worse. Within the city the Spanish commander has heard no recent word of any attempt to relive the city. The situation has reached a critical phase.



North to the top of the map. The main twin north-south rivers are crossable only at the marked bridges. Spanish occupied Pamplona is highlighted in orange. The principle French positions are in blue.

Please note that only two significant military roads run from the city, one north towards Irun and the French border, the other south to the Ebro and Tudela. Other roads shown on the map are useful for local traffic only. While they give benefits for troops manoeuvring around the city they have no use on the strategic map.

The defensive fortifications of the city are shown with red lines. On the battle map these will be zones of breastworks and will give a high defensive cover bonus. The French need to be aware that while they can shoot at targets in cover behind the breastworks or at targets deeper in the city, no French unit may contact any Spanish unit in or behind or between the breastworks - the defences are in reality a full Vauban wall with bastions and covered ways and only a breach by siege artillery would create a gap that could be assaulted by infantry. There are gaps between the breastwork models - the French cannot pass through these gaps.

The French players must not, under any circumstances send units into the city or into melee with defenders on the "walls". Couriers no doubt may try to pass through - the likelihood of these being intercepted is high.

Friday December 9th had been clear and bright. During the morning French observers reported to headquarters at Castelluchio that there was unusual activity in the city, At 1:00 pm the Spanish fortress guns began an unusually fierce bombardment of the French lines and camps. Many French units sought cover. Then at 2:00 pm it was reported to Marechal Mortier that the Spanish were on the move, probably eastwards.

Doodle Poll

More details in the private forums.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Grog on Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:15 am

Working a long day but should be able to join at some time between 8.15 and 8.45pm. Off tomorrow but not too late a start if poss.

Mike
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:52 pm

We have 7 players available at 20:30 UK time today and 7 also at 20:00 UK tomorrow. I'm going to go for 20:00 on Sunday 29th in the hope we can get 4 more players minimum.

Haven't heard from several campaign players - anyone else available?

Ike
Sean
Brett
Kevin
Sam
Paul
Baldwin
Niall
Stefan
Roger

On Saturday we can have a casual game.


Last edited by Mr. Digby on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Robert M on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:16 pm

Can't promise......will try
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  MJP on Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:07 pm

So no game today? I'll be available around 2pm MST (1 hour late) today and should be available tomorrow.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mark87 on Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:25 pm

wedding today gents, I'll be around on the morrow.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  kg little mac on Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:12 am

You got married?
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:46 am

and your honeymoon is am MP game with your pals? Nice.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mark87 on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:27 am

god no her friend. I, being the responsible one, had to watch la mademoiselle take the mixed drink crazytrain tonight..... now, her being put to bed its just me, the dog, and the cat reading by the fireplace.

catch you all tomorrow
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:18 am

What are your dog and cat reading?

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:31 pm

We have 8 signed up for the game today at 20:00 UK time - Grog, I know you said you may not make it, but can you?

We need 3 more - 4 if Grog can't play and even then it means everyone except the C-in-Cs will have a division and in this battle, due to its nature, I don't want the C-in-Cs commanding troops directly except for the French with their corps reserve artillery.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Grog on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:39 pm

Sorry Martin, really wish I could.
Have a good game fellas

Mike
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mark87 on Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:12 pm

Me: re-reading Musket, Cannon, and Sword Battle tactics of Napoleon.

Dog: How to escape metal fencing, a prisoners guide

Cat: How to get away with murder, meet 21 successful feline assassins and their doggy victims
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:43 pm

Going to go for a 19:30 start, please be there earlier if possible. Last night we suffered some lag and a battle that began at 21:00 wasn't over before about 01:00... I don't want a finish that late for those in Europe who need to be up for work the next day.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  7thGalaxy on Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:27 pm

Hi Martin

I know I said I might be about today, but unfortunately I won't be able to make it - I do hope you get enough people.

Apologies

Tom
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Robert M on Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:06 am

Well I must say that this is the very first GCM or HITS battle that I thought was a waste of my time. That just goes to show how important communication is prior to the battle.... The French were apparently were operating under totally different battle concepts than the Spanish,,,,

Not being part of the Strategic war, I cannot comment upon what did, or certainly, did not transpire in those communications, however, in the writeup above, there is nowhere mentioned anything about any "safe zone" for the Spanish.... In fact,

"Please note that only two significant military roads run from the city, one north towards Irun and the French border, the other south to the Ebro and Tudela. Other roads shown on the map are useful for local traffic only. While they give benefits for troops manoeuvring around the city they have no use on the strategic map."

was very clear that the Spanish could not escape the area to the east or west.... and if they succeeded in breaking out of the city to the east or west, they would still be facing the task of moving north or south. And so, that is how our battle plan was constructed.... at no time did I EVER hear of a safe zone... what the Hell is that in a battlefield ?

I must say that I did learn a little more about troop and arty control, in moving about the field... but I can't even bring myself to talking about this particular battle.... To think.... I missed some GCM time on this one....

More and/or better communication needs to happen at the commander level.... or more like this will be in the cards down the road.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mark87 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:46 am

I wrote a detailed page reply but this fecking forum ate it as usual. so feck it im off
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  kg little mac on Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:55 am

Nevermind
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mark87 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:26 am

I will admit that I was operating under an erroneous assumption, which did not help the experience of my team.

As French Commander in Chief, I based my battleplan with an eye towards the campaign itself; particularly with the understanding that the Spanish have been besieged for several weeks and can only move equipment, guns and baggage along a campaign road.

As Napoleon, a situation where a French army corps under Mortier was able to tie up an entire Spanish army for weeks in a siege without supply was most satisfying. Indeed, the French have been able to tidy up pacifying the upper Ebro valley and preparing for a Spanish breakout attempt. That being said, an assumption was made that the Spanish would break out using a campaign road, almost certainly heading south.

This was based upon our strategic understanding; there appears to be no road network and mountainous hills blocking an eastward escape attempt. Additionally, without roads and the ability to take baggage, ammo, and artillery, it was assumed that the Spanish would be, or rather are, sitting dead ducks; easy to fragment and destroy.

It is understandable that Kriegsspiel has no real rules per say; a player must use sound military maxims to solve strategic problems presented. However, guidance must be given in a situation such as this. It can be something as simple as "the Spanish cannot escape with guns, baggage, or equipment" if they fail to secure a campaign map road. That would have allowed the French team to properly prepare a workable strategy with knowledge that the Spanish can escape in any direction but can only remain an organized body North or South.  

The assumption was made, based upon what I suggest to be a very good military strategy maxim, that to break out of a besieged city as an entire army, a road network would need to be used. The French based their plan of action on the protection of both their supply route to Irun and the denial of the southern road to the Spanish. Lerida, probably one of the nearest non-French occupied towns is over 11 hexes away without a road network connecting to Pamplona. Therefore, it was assumed that a Spanish breakout east was merely to get space to turn south and capture the road network, and as such the French took up blocking positions protecting that vital artery.

Without any limitations on where to advance therefore, the Spanish were going to be able to break out easily. Probably better just to inform Mortier that the Spanish army had sallied from the town and escaped without their guns and baggage and let Mortier turn and pursue if there were no restrictions.

This goes to what Father General was talking about in the other thread; virtually any army that allows itself to be bottled up in an enemy surrounded city is doomed unless relieved-most especially after a 6 to 8 week siege or however long it has been. If an army sallied out from said city without taking any of the remaining supplies, baggage, and guns in the middle of winter, it is almost certainly going to be destroyed outright. Especially with the distance between itself and friendly forces as in this case. Not being able to secure lines of communication via a road network is the deathbed of any army. How hard do you punish a player, or a side for an operation level mistake? Does Palafax, in fact, have any army remaining? How can the French anticipate the Spanish making a move that makes no military sense? Does this save the Spanish army from the bell?

Since the Spanish break out East, what exactly are the consequences for an entire army taking off cross country with no supply routes or the ability to take any supplies from Pamplona?

This scenario seemed like a rather easy to deduce scheme when coupled with the campaign map. The French were split North and South, defending each road network, and the Spanish were going to be exiting the city south so that they could attempt to make good their escape. It was to be a race to reunite the French before the Spanish pushed a solitary French division aside and made their escape with guns and baggage along the road. Perhaps they run into more French south and another race against time battle has to be fought. That was our assumption. It was wrong.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Robert M on Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:04 am

Mark, without being privy to all the strategic coms that have gone down, your understanding of the situation seems entirely reasonable to me.  I see no issue with your reasoning, and I fully understand our approach to the battle.

I have no problems in how you approached the strategy of our battle plan.... and only have a problem with the concepts of the "game" itself in this particular battle and how the parameters of success/victory were set up.

The idea of a "safe zone" that is only known to one army is, to say the least, absurd.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  kg little mac on Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:47 am

"The defensive fortifications of the city are shown with red lines. On the battle map these will be zones of breastworks and will give a high defensive cover bonus. The French need to be aware that while they can shoot at targets in cover behind the breastworks or at targets deeper in the city, no French unit may contact any Spanish unit in or behind or between the breastworks - the defences are in reality a full Vauban wall with bastions and covered ways and only a breach by siege artillery would create a gap that could be assaulted by infantry. There are gaps between the breastwork models - the French cannot pass through these gaps.

The French players must not, under any circumstances send units into the city or into melee with defenders on the "walls". Couriers no doubt may try to pass through - the likelihood of these being intercepted is high."

Is that what you're talking about, Robert, when you refer to "safe zones"?
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mark87 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:04 am

No, the Spanish reached an unknown safe zone somewhere due east of the Pamplona. The French were all scrambling to take position to defend the road south of town. So after a brief but bloody struggle to start begin the Spanish maneuver their way due east and the French the opposite, due south to protect the road network.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:49 am

I am prepared to discuss the thinking behind this scenario here in a constructive way, but please be polite and reasonable.

First some technical background.

There is a very fine line to walk when preparing a blind game such as this (as are almost all campaign games). The umpire needs to give the strategic situation as it is known to the battlefield commanders. This is supported by what is also given in the campaign rules and knowledge of military strategy and logistics of the period, and specifically of the Peninsular War. Several reference links are given in the rules thread that has been up for many months about the Peninsular War and there are countless other good articles online and of course many books. I don't expect players to spend money buying books but research online takes only time. I am not being unreasonable to expect some commitment towards a campaign involving almost 30 people and running for 2 years and being nearly a full-time job for me outside of work, sleep and food.

I gave each side's campaign commander (Alain as Mortier and David as Palafox, neither of whom was present for the game) this information as well as the necessary strategic information which they both knew from time spent dealing with the campaign siege for many weeks. These two players constructed battle deployments and/or plans accordingly and I faithfully transferred the deployments to the SoW map. To represent the situation on the morning of the battle when the French learned of Spanish movements eastward in the city, I shifted the easternmost brigade of Suchet's division, plus a battery further east and closer to the city, and the easternmost brigade of Gazan's division a long way east to the slopes of Culps Hill, also with a battery. These deployments were not in Alain's instructions but I consider them reasonable given the news learned by Mortier in the morning.

I agree that a breakout by a besieged force is almost never heard of in Napoleonic warfare, however in Pamplona's case there are mitigating circumstances. The French made a strategic failure here by allocating a fairly small corps to the siege and the fact that the city contained not just the usual sized garrison (commonly under 5,000 men) but an entire army of around 20,000 was news that was gradually trickled to Mortier over several map turns. The siege started with news that the garrison was 'exceptionally large and could be over 10,000 men' was given at the outset.

After two months of attrition for both sides Mortier's corps was down to around 11,500 effectives. Palafox's army had in fact grown slightly due to an influx of loyal, determined, but raw recruits. This was typical of sieges in Spain such as Zaragosa and Gerona where garrisons held out for months made up mainly of citizen soldiers. This was an aspect unique to the Spanish War and was not found anywhere else in Europe. Palafox had an entirely raw division of class 1 troops and the garrison was made up of a mix of about 50/50 class 1 and class 0 units. The 0 rated armed citizen units that auto-skirmish are almost useless. By December Palafox had 17,000 men but with only 900 very poor cavalry. Of his 16,000 infantry, 6,500 made up the completely raw 5th Division, all class 1's. Many of the remaining 9,500 men were class 2's and 3's. Mortier's force included 3,500 good cavalry, mostly rated as class 5, the majority mediums/dragoons. Mortier's infantry is exceptionally good, most of it being 5s with some 6's. All the French foot artillery are 6's, the horse artillery are 7's. Alain/Mortier chose to deploy the dragoons in what turned out to be the least useful location on his perimeter.

These factors of a perimeter that was weak in the area Palafox most needed it to be and a small besieging force vs a large (but poor quality) garrison combined to give Palafox a chance to try an escape. Highly uncommon in Napoleonic warfare but compounded by force disparity and deployments to give the Spanish a slim chance. The pre-battle briefing in the Spanish team room was pretty grim to listen to. The assumption was this would be a defeat and the chances were slim. A hasty rush breakout east and try to push through or past whatever forces lay to the east was the only option the team had. They did not know what lay to the east. They knew a French position was on top of that ridge but didn't know what troop types were there or how strong it was. I think a few Spanish players expected a defeat quite quickly.

The French had half a day's warning in scenario terms that the Spanish were up to something. The game briefing told Mortier/Mark that the Spanish were apparently massing troops on the east and south sides of the city. Campaign players should by now be aware of the small clues I give in my information, typically in the campaign turn-end reports. By saying the Spanish were concentrating in the east and south I was giving a clue as to what their exit direction was likely to be. The French reacted well to this news in the early stages of the game but were compromised by Suchet/Matt dropping within 15 minutes. I wasn't aware we'd lost a player but when I found out I suggested the French should have said something. I'd have restarted the game just 15 minutes in seeing how crucial Matt's command was.

The French were aware of the two roads leading to the strategic map but at no time did I say the Spanish had to exit the SoW map via them. I was asked "are there just 2 roads leading off the map?" to which my reply was "yes". That however was the wrong question. The correct question was "must the Spanish leave by one of the roads to escape?" My answer to that would have been "no". As I mentioned above, the campaign rules allow cross country movement but it forces an army to be out of supply and in winter artillery would have to be left behind. To the Spanish team it was explained that guns and vehicles are the least critical parts of an artillery battery when replacing it is involved. The trained crews are the time consuming factor so I told the Spanish team that to represent taking the crews and horse/oxen teams with the army, the artillery units would have to be got to a map edge. I didn't witness much of the fighting but the replay indicates that few, if any, Spanish guns unlimbered. They were mostly 'baggage' type units that just encumbered the players.

As to the safe zone there is no practical way to declare this to the French. Players must be reasonable and understand this from a scenario designers point of view. If I had told the French that the Spanish had to reach a safe zone at the map edge that would not have been useful because it could have been anywhere. The immediate question would be "where?" and if that information is revealed it destroys the scenario integrity as the French merely have to move directly to that area to try and block the Spanish off. If I had said "any map edge, it does not have to be a road" this still would not have been very useful. The safe zone was a small area in the south-east corner behind two streams. I did this because with the limitations of SoW maps the Spanish going east even on a 5 mile map had a very short distance to cover and to make their journey tougher I imposed several extra miles to represent a march well away from the city. This extra distance represented an eastward march but the map shape required me to impose a southward dog leg to give the Spanish the distance needed.

Of the various options I had I consider the SE corner to be the best available. It was strategically in the correct direction and it threatened to the French a possible move onto the southern road. There are no safe zones in the SoW game engine, the limitations of the software makes their construction impossible. Allowing these or allowing units to march directly off the map like they can in Total War would be a good addition to the game as it would open up extra scenario design possibilities. Given these limitations I had to declare a safe zone where, if a Spanish unit reached it, it was deemed to have escaped the battle. Someone remarked after the battle that there "is no such thing as a safe zone on a battlefield". I completely agree with this statement, however this is a Kriegspiel played with software that has limitations. The safe zone is not on the battlefield, it represents an area off it. Arrangements like these have been common in miniatures and board wargames for 50 or more years and I expect gamers to accept that such conventions can be used in a blind scenario such as this. We've used them many, many times before in KS HITS games, they are nothing new. I am not going to accept that players have a point of complaint over the use of an undeclared safe zone; these are KS HITS games with full fog of war in the Kriegspiel style; no other games like these are played anywhere else in the SoW community, either MP or SP. KS HITS scenarios and especially KS HITS campaign scenarios are full of the unexpected and players are likewise expected to deal with situations that are not handed to them on a plate with full explanations. This is standard KS HITS fare. If you have played many SoW games but few KS HITS games you will be new to this but those who've come into the KS HITS group over the months will understand the point being made.

This game could easily have gone either way and could have been a bigger disaster for the Spanish than it was, that is why I chose to play it as an MP game.

The final results are that the Spanish lost more men. Raw figures before some wounded and missing return to their regiments are:

French: 350 k, 1400 w, 300 m
Spanish: 450 k, 1800 w, 400 m

The battle was an obvious French victory in that they occupied the battlefield at the end of the engagement. This means they recover more wounded and missing and since French regimental surgeons are on average better than Spanish, their wounded and missing returns are, after calculations, high. The French had several guns routed from losses but none destroyed so all their artillery is still present. Replacements in Napoleonic artillery companies were drafted in from the infantry as many men in an artillery battery were ammunition handlers and drivers, the technically trained gun crews themselves made up a smaller proportion of the overall numbers.

The Spanish army left the battlefield mostly undamaged but please don't equate that to anything good. They lost all their artillery. Their army is out of supply. Their troops are demoralised. Check the campaign rules for what duress that places them under.

Pamplona now has a very small garrison - after casualties in the battle I think its about 3,500 men. Food is very low. The city will soon fall in all likelihood. This releases Mortier's corps for further operations.

Players need to please understand and accept two things:

1) This is a campaign game. It must be viewed in that context. Body counts are often not relevant. Strategic situation is everything.
2) KS HITS SoW games are Kriegspiels. We are a Kriegspiel community. You are often given incomplete information and can sometimes be given downright wrong information. You are expected to do the best you are able given what information you are given and what you learn as the scenario unfolds. Communication is key. Quick reaction is key. Processing incomplete information correctly is key.

I am not going to accept complaints such as "we were not told X, Y or Z".

The French won, the Spanish lost. I am somewhat perplexed as to what the fuss is about.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Pamplona game

Post  PhillWP on Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:15 am

First of all, many thanks to Diggers for all the hard work in setting the game up. The mix of Spanish uniforms was great. I didn't get a close look at the French owing to my rather speedy movements in the opposite direction. Can I also say a big thank you to everyone for making a newbie like me feel so welcome in the community.

This was my first "real" campaign game though I have been pleased to take part in a couple of Martin's "Blue vs Red" Training Kriegspieles on a Friday night, a "Little Bighorn" game and an introductory game with Digby whilst I get to know how the game works which can lead to some interesting tactical innovations and frustrations as you merrily issue orders in the wrong way or accidentally press the wrong button on the wrong unit.

I must admit, I was expecting most of my force to run away and most of the ones that actually came into contact with the Frenchies did rout and or surrender. Can I just say in our defence, the high losses of prisoners and guns was actually part of a cunning plan to slow down the French advance and tie up large numbers of French troops guarding hoards of prisoners of war, allowing our glorious Spanish forces freedom to reconquer our beloved country in the name of His most catholic Majesty. I also have to point out, that one of my brigades DID (contrary to popular belief) actually shoot at least one French soldier (possibly two) (and didn't run at the sound of their own muskets)! I have this on good authority as obviously I was no where near the shooting but was busy have lunch at a local taverna. OLE

Keep up the grand work. Enjoy.
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PhillWP

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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

Post  Robert M on Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:03 pm

I certainly echo the regard for the creation and shepherding of the entire scope of work that goes into the creation of such a campaign.... I reel at the time, effort, and commitment it must take....

I emphatically disagree with how this particular battle was handled however.... I am new and understand that my voice might be a small one,but this was about as "gamey" as it comes..... The idea of "you didn't ask the right question" and dancing around the the obvious "what constitutes a victory" in a battle is in my mind a non starter

One side knowing that there is a "safe zone" to get to, and the other side not knowing that one even exists, let alone where it might be, is not where a referee should stand... I am just content to agree to disagree on this point...
It took away the enjoyment of what I would consider a "meaningful" MP battle experience....

The KS experience, with the HITS aspect, the community, the immersive nature of,your campaign is a wonderful thing in which to participate.... And I thank you for allowing me to take part.... I am appreciative... However, in my limited, humble, and apparently uninformed opinion, this,was as gamey as it gets in not a good way, and hopefully more than just I can learn from the reaction that it solicited.
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Re: 17. Battle of Pamplona - 9th December 1808

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