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19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

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19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:06 pm

Gentlemen,

We have a major action developing just north of Valladolid. An Allied army made up of General Cuesta's Army of Castilla (between 17,000 and 20,000 men) and the British of Sir John Moore (between 11,000 and 13,000) are shifting rearwards away from the French Army of Madrid that has arrived from the north-west on the road from Sahagun. The French comprise Victor's I Corps (between 20,000 and 22,000 men) and the Imperial Guard (about 5,000 or 6,000). Marechal Soult's II Corps is known to be approaching from the direction of Cabezon as well.

The Allies are breaking camp and withdrawing when the French, about a mile off and across the Rio Arlanzon, move to attack. The Allies have the unfordable Rio Duero at their backs south of the city.



Soult's II Corps is en-route and for now only light advanced elements have made contact with Sir John Moore's vedettes and Napoleon's far left flank. II Corps is thought to be between 10,000 and 13,000 men.

SCENARIO SPECIFIC RULES:

1) The rivers coloured in blue are crossable only at the marked points.
2) There is a Spanish supply depot in the city.
3) Key roads that connect to major routes (i.e. supply roads) on the campaign map are marked as such. Forces reaching the map edge at or within 250 yards of these road ends will be assumed to have left the battle. They may not be engaged and may not fire or march back towards the centre of the map. Players commanding such troops should face them to the map edge in line, infantry laying down, guns limbered if possible. Note this will require a player to TC many units; this is intentional and represents commanders working to organising a retreat. Players whose troops are pursuing or engaging such forces must cease fire and turn away. If a player at the map edge keeps his troops facing into the map and shooting, they have not left and may continue to be attacked.
4) Forces reaching any map edge in other areas will still safely depart the area of combat - owning players please position them as above - but may be out of supply or worse if no overland route avoiding a major river is available.
5) As previously determined, an army caught retreating with a river at its back can be in an extremely vulnerable condition.
6) As per campaign rules either side may delete a light cavalry brigade from it's OOB. This must be at least 5 squadrons. Such a force is assumed to be held in reserve throughout the battle and if that side is victorious it is assumed to be released for pursuit and will increase the defeated sides losses by a good margin. Likewise if a side that retains a light cavalry reserve is defeated and quits the field, its light cavalry is assumed to be released as the rearguard and losses will be reduced. If both sides employ post-battle light cavalry forces their effects are cancelled out.
7) No player-generals may go beyond 250 yards of the furthest forward infantry or cavalry units of their command.

We shall fight this battle next weekend 25th-26th April. I am away this weekend. Please sign up and invite all your friends; numerous command slots available.

Doodle here.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:52 pm

There are a total of 19 player slots for this game and that is with no-one taking a brigade. I am not sure SoW will handle that many player with couriers as well. We may have to combine some commands, such as corps commanders taking a division as well.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Grog on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:18 pm

Definitely  cannot  make it due to night  shift  :-(

Edit: Except Friday
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:23 pm

So far Friday is by far the best attended day, starting at 20:00 BST, 15:00 EST, 21:00 CET.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mark87 on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:43 pm

Almost certainly cannot make Friday. Work day and all, unless we started after 5 which would be impossible for most across the sea lol
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Uncle Billy on Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:04 pm

I'll be out of town that weekend, so I will not be able to play.

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I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:50 pm

As it stands right now on Doodle results I'm going with Friday 24th April at 20:30 BST, 21:30 CET, 15:30 EST. This can change if a whole bunch of people sign up for another day.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:23 pm

All -

As Saturday was our least well-patronised day I have deleted it. Sunday is our #2 day but Friday is still the most popular day. To make it easier for people in our ex-colonies I have added 3 more later time slots on Friday so that we begin to run into the after work/after school period. I hope this attracts more players.

Doodle here.

For those of you who have already filled the Doodle in, please edit your response to answer the new time slot availabilities.

Many thanks everyone.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:11 pm

I intend to use the new updated KS Nap mod for this battle on Friday. It's version v1.714 and it was tested last night by four of us.

Basic changes:

1) Infantry divisional columns and lines are slightly slower.
2) Muskets rate of fire is increased - an attacking column will now leave an appreciable trail of dead men behind as it advances, especially at shorter ranges. Softening up of an enemy with artillery prep is recommended before sending in the assault columns.
3) Fatigue rates upped a little so troops tire faster.
4) Irregular cavalry such as Cossacks tire faster still so their usefulness is short-lived in a long battle.
5) Artillery pieces placed 14 yards apart again to prevent guns stacking atop each other and blocking fire. This makes artillery easier to handle and more powerful.
6) Artillery fire effects upped a bit.
7) A few other minor changes, one area is morale which is a little more susceptible to losses.

The game now plays a little slower so this enables players in theory to handle bigger commands.

Note this version of the mod is still under testing and will probably be changed again before another 'stable' version lives with us for a while.

You NO LONGER need the Road to Wagram and Peninsular Mod so you can safely delete that.

The three mods are the KS Nap Mod, the updated Supplemental Maps Mod and the new KS Sprites Mod.

The mods can be placed in any activated order you like! Graphics mods like GCM terrain and smoke, etc do not affect it; these can be activated too. Please download BEFORE Friday as these are big files, especially the Sprites Mod. Please don't log into Teamspeak at five to eight saying you haven't got the mods installed yet! Evil or Very Mad

Links:

Supplemental Maps v105

KS Nap Mod Large v1.714

KS Nap Mod Small v1.714
(for vertical screen resolutions of less than 1024 pixels)

KS Sprites Mod v1.00

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  MJP on Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:47 am

Sigh....i need zip files for these.
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mark87 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:11 am

just download http://www.7-zip.org/download.html

Its free and easy.
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:17 pm

The OOB is finished. My God that was a monster task! Took me 4 days of after-work, work. There are a LOT of guns on this battlefield. There'll probably be a small gravity well around Napoleon's feet. Off to build the scenario now. Last call for commanders who want troops specifically placing!!!

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:17 pm

We'll meet in TS at 20:00 BST which will give us plenty of time to check set-ups. game start will be 21:00 BST.

GCM guys - how many extra people do you think you can get along to play other than our regulars? Avery? SDJI? BenMilam? MacLeod?

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Father General on Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:02 pm

The birds, the birds! Reinforce the aviary!
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  King_Rufus on Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:04 pm

I am most glad you are attending to the strategic imperatives, Gen’l Moore.
HF
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Father General on Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:41 pm

Absolutely, Sir. What good is it to win a war if you cannot even add a Hoopoe bird to the zoological garden?
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:28 am

Very quick report before my nurse comes to turn down my sheets and tuck me into bed...

It is a minor French victory. Both sides held back a brigade of light cavalry to either pursue a beaten foe or act as rearguard behind a retreat so these brigades cancelled each other out.

The British corps got away safely almost without a scratch except for some stray guns that took the scenic route and the KGL light dragoons who got a bit cut up while attempting to cover said retreating guns near Gonzaga, one squadron of these routed from the field after being trounced by a square. That is twice now in two minor skirmishes the British light cavalry has come off worst; good to see they are living up to their reputation.

Sir John Moore's corps managed to get away west along the road to Zamora. The Spanish army headed south over very broken country and finally made the bridges of Novi and the south bank of the Duero except for Penmuir's division and Mutis' garrison division which got away across the bridges towards Villimpenta.

The Spanish cavalry under Pepe's command behaved valiantly; the replay shows them in the thick of the rearguard action several times. The French light cavalry of Victor's corps was very badly cut up by their Spanish opponents - no less than 4 of their squadrons being routed. The Spanish cavalry lost 1 squadron routed and 2 captured. Well done Pepe.

The French guard cavalry crossed sabres with the Spanish infantry garrison of the city which was a trifle unsporting of them as it clashed Exp 9 troops with Exp 1s. The outcome was as you'd expect.

The guard also broke into Valladolid directly and captured the Supply Depot there. One imperial guardsman was killed and one wounded!

Losses in raw numbers (before stragglers and lightly wounded rejoin the ranks are):

French: 119 killed, 477 wounded, 104 missing
Spanish: 464 killed, 1,974 wounded, 409 missing
British: 28 killed, 116 wounded, 25 missing

These will be adjusted in the French favour somewhat since they had possession of the field as night fell.

The Spanish are quite roughed up and will need time to recover, the British are in quite good shape but will still need time to repair their straggling admin echelon which got into disorder during the retreat. Sir John though does receive the accolade of getting his army out intact from under Napoleon's nose though it also seems the French were more intent on damaging the Spanish than the English.

Start Positions

Replay

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mark87 on Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:52 am

Well, the Spanish and British slinked off to some other mud hole in this godforsaken country. Well done men you have earned a victory effortlessly. The captured supplies at Valladolid shall be consumed in a feast of celebration.

My commanders deserve praise: Mark and Macleod, you both performed superbly. You grasp the intent of my orders fully and allowed our guns to do the work without sacrificing the pride of France. Both of you splashed across a river, under fire, and turned the enemy flank and completely routed all opposition. You were outnumbered yes, but never outfought. Magnificent.

Knight, a little aggressive, as usual, however you engaged Pepe and held your own. You led the advance guard and successfully screened our flank march. Very good job general.

MJP; utter failure! If you had stayed in the game our victory would have certainly been a major one. I was forced to ride back and forth incessantly instead of commanding my guard and pummeling the opposition. You will be relegated to old guard infantry command next battle!

Longstreet, well done: the biggest surprise of the battle. You showed great restraint and patience in deploying your division and driving the opposition off of each ridge, through each valley, over and over. Indeed you allowed me to set up a ring of fire with the guard artillery and completely demolish a Spanish infantry brigade in a matter of minutes. Lastly, you charged a Spanish brigade inflicting hundreds of casualties for the loss of, 4 men. If the game had not ended an entire Spanish brigade would have been put to the sword.

All in all the Army of Madrid inflicted numerous casualties and captured many supplies and munitions. The road to Madrid is now open. I hear Wellington is expecting me. 700 unadjusted casualties take for 3016 inflicted is not bad.
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  SolInvictus202 on Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:58 pm

sounds a lot like the Battle of Valmy to me....

I am glad that enough players showed up and that you captured the depot with minimal losses!

well done!
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  MJP on Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:52 pm

MJP; utter failure! If you had stayed in the game our victory would have certainly been a major one. I was forced to ride back and forth incessantly instead of commanding my guard and pummeling the opposition. You will be relegated to old guard infantry command next battle!

No doubt.  I shall fall on my sword.

You know, the horrible thing is that talking to the guys after the game, I was in the process of writing the critical order when I got disconnected.   I was writing a courier to Soldier to tell him to move to Rudlo and then through the woods to Motto.   But as so often happens, as I was writing the order I couldn't remember the f'ing town names and in my haste for some reason to get out of the courier screen to look at the map, I alt-tabbed as if that was going to bring me back to the battle to allow me to see the names.  Much to my horror when I alt-tabbed back into game it crashed (something that in 3 years of playing has NEVER happened).    Had soldier received this order and had I been able to take my division to the southeast (northeast in game) to seminary and then cemetery ridge, given the English line of retreat west we would have cut them off and a major engagement would have ensued.  I believe that they would have been hard pressed with a French division blocking their route and another French division and my 40 or so guns firing down on their flank.  

Of course we'll never know what would have happened, but I was shocked to learn after the game that the English retreat path was to Zamora which gave your "turn the left" battle plan inadvertent tactical brilliance.   But...I got disconnected, the order was never issued, and the French never made the move to Motto and the English escaped unharmed.  

Rumor has it that Napoleon himself quit the field early and in the subsequent confusion tremendous opportunities to punish the Spanish were lost.  

I personally vote that we re-fight this game for fun on Sunday with no campaign consequences and with the English and Spanish putting up an actual fight.   Makes good use of Digby's hard work on the scenario and would be good fun all around and resolve the "what ifs"! It's also an opportunity to test out the changes that have been made. Most feedback I've had are the changes aren't necessarily all for the good. Movement is too slow everywhere rather than just near the enemy as it should be for one. Seems arty is even more devastating than before. And it would be good to have a test of what happens now when you fight an English firing line with the increased musketry.

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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:30 pm

Yes. I thought afterwards that it would make a very good stand-alone fight if we removed all strategic constraints. I would delete the placeholder II Corps of Soult which was there only to worry the Allies. It consisted of only a few hundred men but all 11 generals so the OOB showed up complete and given how Genl. Fraser moved his British division east at the start of the action I think he at least feared they were really coming down the Burgos road Wink

I might also delete 3rd division from French I Corps as well. The French OOB has so many guns it would be an unbalanced fight as it stands, unless I add an objective in the south the Allies can defend.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mark87 on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:31 pm

I was utterly frustrated, I saw the opportunity when the Brits marched along longstreets and I field of vision westward. I watched the replay and saw how close we were to a tremendous victory: the allies quiting that ridge led to us having total momentum. I saw with their deployment and the ground that going up the middle would have been sucide. This was one where the correct plan was adopted but fortunes of war did not smile on our side. C'est la guerre non? Also, Pepe saved the day for the allies. Completely and totally
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  MJP on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:48 pm

Digby, I would remove third division, but if you feel the French have too many guns, you could remove 1 battery from each division or something along those lines. But really, the idea would be to play it as is just to see what would happen in a stand up fight.

Mark - I just watched the replay and you can really see that if we had marched on Motto when I was typing that order, it appears two British Divisions would have slipped the net, but Palmer would most certainly have been caught facing 3 French Divisions. Shame on me.

I also disagree with your assessment about going up the middle. We would not have been crushed, though the English would probably have slipped away easier. Of course, this is something we can certainly test out in a refight.

Matt
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:04 pm

the idea would be to play it as is just to see what would happen in a stand up fight.
It would be a slaughter, the Spanish army is no opponent at all. If it were they would not have retreated! To make a stand-alone game enjoyable the French would need to lose a division at least. They still have tremendous superiority in cavalry and guns.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 19. Second Battle of Valladolid - 19th January 1809

Post  MJP on Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:40 pm

Perhaps I just have too much respect dor the English. My thinking is that 12,000 English can handle about 16000 French. This leaves about 3000 French infantry to deal with what 18000 Spanish? So I think the Spanish and English can win this if they play it right. Cemetery ridge and hill is perfect reverse slope position. If we do play it again, I'll gladly play it as is as a Spanish commander. I think it's winnable.
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