Latest topics
» Can you see what it is yet?
by Mr. Digby Today at 1:46 am

» Impromptu Games
by Mr. Digby Yesterday at 2:49 pm

» Map Modding Q&A
by Mr. Digby Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:34 pm

» Army level rules?
by Tim Carne Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:12 pm

» Chancellorsville North map - Polish winter
by rschilla Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:37 pm

» 2017 k/spiel game schedule
by Martin Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:40 pm

» 30 Free Scenarios for Kickstarter backers of General Staff
by Dr Ezra Sidran Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:35 pm

» Crop sprites
by Didz Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:17 pm

» AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files
by Miko77 Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:58 am

» KS Map Modding Project
by rschilla Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:23 am

» Chickamauga conversion to Germany
by Mr. Digby Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:04 am

» How to import scanned maps into the General Staff wargaming system.
by Dr Ezra Sidran Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:43 pm

Statistics
We have 970 registered users
The newest registered user is Eagle Tsui

Our users have posted a total of 23832 messages in 1909 subjects
Keywords

stock  scenario  maps  battles  camera  

Log in

I forgot my password


Where no battles should ever be fought...

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:59 pm

Where mountain infantry belongs...



Monte Piano, 3 Cime

Over 14,000 men lost their lives on this high plateau between 1915 and 1917... The northern side was occupied by Austrians, the southern side by the Italiens.... mines, tunnels and trenches were in-between. No matter the season, no matter the weather - both sides attacked each other for 3 years - with little to no gain at all...

Not only soldiers lost their lives up there - but also civilian helpers transporting supplies up to the positions on the most hazardous of mountain paths - more froze to death or died of disease than of actual combat injuries.





the main Austrian trenches on the northern side of the plateau (Coy HQ here):



of course the entire mountain had numerous tunnels and eventual mines... some of them to serve as connection between the main defensive positions - others to counter enemy tunnels... the conditions they had to fight in.... unbelievable...




the view from the forward Italian position onto the Austrian 1st trench line... an MG and a mortar were positioned here:








more pics to follow later on....
avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:19 pm

Lagazoui and Col di Lana:


The later was probably one of the most important sites of the war in the Alps between 1915 and 1917 - Col di Lana was the area where Italians realized that the Austrian position was simply impossible to take - and so they decided to undermine it and eventually simply blow up the entire peak! Although all soldiers were lost on the top of the mountain the remaining Austrians were able to reform on the next ridge line and thus prevent a break through. Until then the Italians had lost so many lives trying to take this mountain that they had renamed it "Col de Sangue" - Mountain of Blood.

You can see the ridgeline heading towards it on the right upper hand corner of this picture - with the right hand centre of it showing one of the numerous blocking positions constructed by the Austrians in the late 1880s (this one is called "Tre Sasse" -  it also holds a WW1 Museum nowadays) - which were, when war broke out, pretty much all the available positions to delay any Italian advance until new fortifications could be constructed - the main strategy thus saw the Austrians fall back onto them quickly, with minor adjustments being made to the MRL as new troops arrived on the field from Galicia... the only reason why this was possible was because the Italians weren't ready for the war when they declared and expected heavy resistance...






The front line on the Lagazuoi showed another curiosity: The Austrian position was high up on the mountain, while the Italians tried to position themselves below: shooting them from above proved highly ineffective - one tried to throw down barrels filled with explosives - wasn't successful either - so both sides decided again to just blow up the mountain - the Italians to annihilate the Austrians above them - the Austrians to do the same with the Italians below.... the mines were detonated days apart from each other - and both were rather ineffective... but one can still see the huge amount of rocks they blew up....

MG positions deep in the rock:



an Austrian early warning position - including a telephone connection for a forward artillery observer:





the Austrian position was in that rock face... the small hole up there on the top is the MG position seen before.... the Italians were where the avalanche is now....





generous quarters for the common soldiers:







all the fighting aside: the scenery is just stunningly beautiful:

avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:30 pm

Very very nice Roland!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:34 pm

A Monument for the Fallen:

The number of different smaller cemeteries for the fallen was so great that the Italian government decided to create a few large ones to accommodate all of them...

One of these is found near the Bordoi Pass...




again situated in the most beautiful of landscapes...





I left the best to last - and so I went up the Marmolata today - the only glacier in Southern Tyrol (lost to Italy after WW1):




even up here both sides decided to fight....















His Grace, Sol Invictus III himself... to ensure that everyone leaves this thread now... Twisted Evil


avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:07 pm

Great pics. That is an utterly insane place to fight. It appears it is all above timberline, so for 10 months out of the year, it's not a very nice place to be. I'm surprised the soldiers didn't declare an informal truce and go about life instead of blowing each other up. That would be the Italian thing to do.

_________________
I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
avatar
Uncle Billy

Posts : 2808
Join date : 2012-02-27
Location : western Colorado

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:24 pm

Incredible. It seems that due to the extreme weather and inaccessible locations a lot is preserved - or are these museum reconstructions?

EDIT: BTW, be aware that this forums software chops off the right hand side of big pics which has happened to most of yours. Its why I only post links and not the actual image.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
avatar
Mr. Digby

Posts : 4827
Join date : 2012-02-14
Age : 57
Location : UK Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:47 pm

@ Kevin: indeed - lots of fighting was done above timberline - of course the valleys below were always guarded as well - but most of the attacks were conducted up there. Furthermore due to the general geographical situation you had the Italians usually on the southern side of the mountains which gave them an advantage on one side, since the snow melted earlier there - while the Austrians had to freeze for quite a bit longer - on the other side it put them into more dangerous avalanche zones - which of course was exploited by both sides... yes... they intentionally triggered avalanches to bury trenches in snow...
The soldiers in general respected each other -problems arose especially with the local troops who sometimes fought on the "wrong" side... if they were caught by the other they were shot or hung as traitors...both countries considered this part of the planet as their "natural territory" - that Austria owned it for over half a millenium didn't really count - whoever it should have belonged to - it was a bloody silly place to fight over...

a video from back then:


@Martin:
indeed - quite a lot is preserved - although I showed the more "obvious" remains - you can see a lot of trenches in the landscape - most are deteriorated to a mere difference in level of the ground in the general area of course. The concrete shown in some of the first pictures was added later - but the trenches as such, the tunnels etc is exactly as it was back then... in fact you even had wooden houses/barracks on the opposing mountain faces - built with wood of course - which is no longer around...
I will post some more pictures in the upcoming days to show that...

as for the size of the pictures - I took them with my mobile and downsized them to 1024x768 - I hoped that this would be in enough - are all of "broad" ones cut on the right hand side?
avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Martin on Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:04 pm

Great shots Roland.  I'm very interested in WW1 on the Austro-Italian front.  Looking a the terrain, you can see why most battles were on the Isonzo sector - which itself was not great to fight over!

Martin (J)


Last edited by Martin on Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : elegance)

Martin

Posts : 2161
Join date : 2008-12-20
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  King_Rufus on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:13 pm

Yes, fantastic stuff Roland, thanks for posting.

I have also been fascinated by the Austro-Italian front and have garnered a lot of information during two hols on the Italian lakes; last year, staying near Maggiore, I was surprised to learn that the Italian defence line was built right along the Swiss border as well, presumably in case the Austrians cunningly snuck through that way?

Hemingway's A FAREWELL TO ARMS is set in this theatre; people may also have come across the paperback of THE WHITE WAR which is widely available in the UK.

There is one particular Alpine episode which I think would make quite a good Kriegsspiel, if I can find a good map for it; I shall not go into detail, though, for fear of giving too much away to the prospective players who may read this. Another vaguely playable scenario might be Caparetto/Kobarid 1917, which is more widely known.

Thanks again for re-stimulating Alpine thoughts; I look forward to the rest of the photos.
avatar
King_Rufus

Posts : 185
Join date : 2009-01-04

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:46 pm

Roland - I presumed that a number of your pics had the right hand edge cut off because the last one seems to be - you are chopped in half and I doubt the original photo was like that. I can only guess if any others are similarly truncated.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
avatar
Mr. Digby

Posts : 4827
Join date : 2012-02-14
Age : 57
Location : UK Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:18 pm

I see Rolland in all his splendor. Did you scroll all the way to the right?

_________________
I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
avatar
Uncle Billy

Posts : 2808
Join date : 2012-02-27
Location : western Colorado

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Iberalc on Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:51 am

Very interesting writting and nice pictures. Many thanks Roland.
avatar
Iberalc

Posts : 433
Join date : 2014-09-19
Location : Alicante

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:42 am

Did you scroll all the way to the right?

I don't have a scroll bar. The pic is cut off down his left leg.

It looks like the forum code works in some browsers and not in others. I'm using Firefox.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
avatar
Mr. Digby

Posts : 4827
Join date : 2012-02-14
Age : 57
Location : UK Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:55 am

I am using Firefox as well... it may have to do with the screen size and the resolution? I don't have a scroll bar at all - I can see the full pictures with plenty of space to spare on both sides... that's why I was surprised...

I will add the link the picture in the future uploads!
avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Martin on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:58 am

Yes I'm missing you in your full glory too, Roland. Is this the famous one where you have blond pigtails, and are wearing a Viking helmet?

Martin (J)

Martin

Posts : 2161
Join date : 2008-12-20
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:02 am

I am actually going for my new pink Iroquois look... I was told it both goes along with army regs AND it is most fashionable these days... Shocked

avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:16 am

I am glad that the pictures interest all of you! - As promised a few more: (posted the link below for all those that can't see the full picture... could it have to do with screen size? cause I don't even have to scroll...)

I will simply copy the links so that EVERYONE can have a look at them in full....

Monte Piano


a valley they tried to "flank" the enemy through... none reached the top....

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif



that is how many of the trenches look like on the Italian side:

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif


the Italians basically opted to build their trench line right along the edge of the mountain... the barracks would have been below them in the actual rock face...

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif







avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:29 am

Austrian side of Monte Piano:


http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif





The blocking position of Tre Sasse from above

if you look at the pictures of the great French fortresses used in the war of 1870 you will find many similarities - these were constructed around 1880....

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif



Lagazuoi

Feldwachposten 4 (Sentry position 4) - from here the Austrians fired at the Italians below them... they literally had to lean over the sandbags to get an angle on them...

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

the entire mountain side had tunnels and positions drilled into it... here the soldiers lived, fought and died...

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif



I crawled into every tunnel possible... sometimes on my knees because they were so tiny...

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif



until I reached signs like this...

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif


Last edited by SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:36 am

more tunnels - and most end in some form of opening facing the enemy... the larger ones were filled and covered with sandbags and iron plating no doubt... some of which is still lying around...
on an important side note: the Italians literally scavenged every material possible in the early 1930s when they went to war with Ethiopia etc... They were lacking anything from guns to munitions to steel... and so they remembered having left all this junk up there in the Alps back in WW1 and now went back to collect it...


http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif


http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif


http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif




avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:43 am

last but not least: Marmolata and Sella Ronda

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
avatar
SolInvictus202

Posts : 658
Join date : 2015-03-04
Location : Austria

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:43 pm

Beautiful pictures Roland, thanks. What strange and crazy things men will do in warfare. Its all terribly tragic.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
avatar
Mr. Digby

Posts : 4827
Join date : 2012-02-14
Age : 57
Location : UK Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Where no battles should ever be fought...

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum