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KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

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KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:56 pm

An update to the KS Napoleon Mod has been uploaded.  This version removes the last of ti auto-skirmisher code.  Also an advance while firing and fallback while firing button has been added to the infantry combat tab.

The link to the download is in the first post of this thread: KS Napoleon Mod II Setup

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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:34 pm

Good stuff. Thank you.

Kevin - when will you have the time to include Pom's Peninsular sprites please? With the campaign resuming I'd like to use them.

Cheers.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  SolInvictus202 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:53 pm

thanks for your continuous efforts!
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Charmead on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:21 pm

Awesome
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Iberalc on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:31 pm

Lovely! bounce
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:47 pm

Tubular.

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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Volunteer on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:03 pm

Thank you!
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Help Required

Post  xray on Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:34 pm

Hi Uncle Billy and Team

I’m a little confused re the advance and fallback while firing buttons that have been added to the new build.

Were the buttons already on the combat tab and have just been activated or are they new?

Could someone please explain what the buttons look like and when they appear e.g. during Combat, in Line etc?

I’ll also take this opportunity to say a big thanks for all the expertise and hard work that goes into the KS Napoleon Mod II

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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:27 pm

Kevin - do these advance firing and fallback firing buttons give us the same manoeuvre that GB did? If so I am not sure they are applicable unless we can limit them to only units in skirmish formation. When close order troops did something like this they'd probably cease fire, advance a way and then resume firing - something you can do now with the advance 25 yds button. I have never heard of Napoleonic close order troops doing anything like a fire and retire movement.

My vote is we remove these buttons again unless we can limit them to skimishing troops only.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Uncle Billy on Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:39 pm

They can be used by all troops. The AI is especially fond of these. The troops take one or two steps forward or backwards and fire. It is a very halting advance or retreat. You can tell when they do this as their formations become a bit ragged.

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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:47 pm

Yes, I understand what it is, because we've seen it for years in the Gettysburg game.

Presumably it was a tactic used by ACW infantry? I don't know enough about ACW battlefield drills to know.

That doesn't make it applicable to Napoleonics though and seeing as it makes a ragged firing line I am less happy to include it, because such a formation was anathema to Nappy officers.

I don't think its correct to use in the Napoleonic period and would prefer to see it removed, unless, as I said, we can mod the game so only skirmishing units can use it.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:32 pm

Hi xray - sorry, your questions got overlooked in the discussions.

Here's a screenshot:

http://www.atomic-album.com/showPic.php/22426/Fire_and_Advance.jpg

The Fire-Advance and Fire-Retire buttons are on the Infantry-Combat tab and appear for both single battalions and brigades. They are the two extreme lower right ones depicting a musket with a line symbol below it and an up or down arrow. You can see from the pic that Fire-Advance has been selected (highlighted yellowish colour). The battalion will creep very slowly forwards in a fairly ragged formation and you'll see a destination flag marker a few yards in front of it.

These are completely new buttons and are not available in the vanilla game. They were ported over from Gettysburg.

As you can see from the above discussion I am not happy with them because I don't agree that Napoleonic close order infantry used such a tactic. They would be very good buttons for skirmishing infantry however.

P.S. You should join us for some MP games, its the best way to play the game by far!

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Fire Advance and Fire Retire

Post  xray on Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:33 pm

Mr D et al

Many thanks for your explanation re the use of Fire Advance and Fire Retire buttons.

As for the use of such a tactic I’ve never read of it’s use although it’s possible that it was used as were many other tactic innovations during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods.

I know there were expounded many theories in pamphlets and books on how best to control troops in the heat of battle, some that beggar belief, example the ‘Grande Bande’ which many military historians say never happened!

My humble opinion for what it’s worth ‘it was probably tried but not widespread’

I don’t think I have the right to vote on the matter at the present as just being a newbie observer.

Again many thanks to the team for a mod which has increased my enjoyment of the simulation immensely.


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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:26 pm

I know that there were several "firing while advancing" drills used by European infantry over many decades. Frederick the Great's superbly drilled Prussian infantry used a rolling fire by platoons as they advanced at the Battle of Mollwitz in 1741, to the great dismay of the Austrians who could not withstand this assault.

If we had some kind of fire and advance drill the game used that had a historical appearance I'd be very happy to see it!

The problem for me with this particular formation is it becomes ragged with every sprite acting alone in a kind of dense skirmish line. This was probably done in the ACW and given the volunteer and more free-thinking nature of their troops and the denser terrain they fought in it surely made a lot of sense. However the drill of European troops was draconian by comparison and men were not trained and drilled to act and think alone. Any fire-advance drill would have probably seen the line moving forward by companies or platoons, or as a whole for a few paces, then halting to fire, before loading and advancing again. The key thing here I think is that a tightly dressed formation was vital because of the threat of cavalry attack (something else ACW infantry had no need to be concerned about).

If we can design a different kind of well-ordered advance and fire move it would be great.

However I cannot think of any European infantry drill that encompassed a fire-and-retire tactic. Only skirmishers used that.

It is a shame some WL players have brought across a keyboard.csv file from Gettysburg and thus can order this tactic used even without a toolbar button. I can only ask those players to not use that keymap or only use it with skirmish order infantry.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: KS Napoleon Mod II 1.12

Post  Grog on Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:26 am

I've recently read three good books on infantry tactics of the Napoleonic wars:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elite-164-British-Napoleonic-Infantry/dp/1846032229

http://www.amazon.com/French-Napoleonic-Infantry-Tactics-1792-1815/dp/1846032784

https://ospreypublishing.com/prussian-napoleonic-tactics-1792-1815


The British adopted variations of Sir David Dundas's 'Principles of Military Movements'-1788. There are 18 manoeuvres.

No 12 - Retreating by alternate companies

No 16 -Firing advance by alternate half battalions.

Haythornthwaite goes on to say that such complicated manoeuvres were impractical in the field and battalions learned to concentrate on drills for movement in line, column and square formations. There are several contemporary accounts mentioned to support this.

Skirmishers might be a different story but the author also emphasises experience in the field, with complicated drills increasing risk to the unit.

Paddy Griffith does not mention firing advances or firing retreats in his book on French inf tactics.

I don't remember Peter Hofschröer describing such tactics for the Prussians but I will check that out when my Kindle is charged up Smile
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