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Volley effect

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Re: Volley effect

Post  TooFatLardies on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:20 pm

My thoughts here are that I suspect that YogahofYog has a different version of the rules to the one that Bill translated.

I am pretty certain from speaking to Bill in the past that he would not have rearranged the tables, he would not have left out or changed the shape of the kriegsspiel blocks (which is what I presume is meant by "stones") or rulers. I can certainly accept that Bill may not have translated the original German text as efficiently as someone who is a fluent German speaker, however Bill was a man of great integrity and was also some kind of professional artist (commercial?) and I am 100% certain that he would have reproduced the illustrations faithfully.

Why on earth one would expect Bill to reproduce the original German text I cannot for a moment understand. Bill translated the rules so that we mere mortals would not need to trawl through German dictionaries. His work was undertaken in order to make Kriegsspiel playable, not as some kind of quasi-religious crusade where the original text was considered sacrosanct. Personally I think he did a good job, I doubt very much if YogahofYog's translation will add anything to the playability of the game. Indeed if he sticks religiously to the original text then it will be considerably less user-friendly than what exists currently.

I would make the same observation regarding decimal zolls. Surely we can at least agree that by using 1cm to 100 paces we are utilising a measurement that is lingua franca in most of the world? Again, going back to the original scale may be true to the original work, however it will not add anything to the game.

I can only congratulate you on the careful research that you are doing, and I wish you well with the project. That said, I am saddened that you seem to feel that your undertaking is somehow elevated in its standing by your criticising and dismissing out of hand the trail blazing work that Bill carried out thirty years ago.


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Re: Volley effect

Post  Guy on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:49 pm

Yogahofyag,
I admire your research effort and welcome any addition in English to the literature on Kriegsspiel and I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labour. Like Richard though I do wonder if there is some simple explanation for the discrepancies you see between Bill's production and your copy of the Reisswitz text.

My concern was not your integrity, or your ability to translate from German to English correctly, but simply what came over as a rather heavy handed approach to stating your case. I am sure Bill had no intention of deceiving anyone, or profiting from the production of some bowdlerised version. You say you knew of Reisswitz before you new of Bill Leeson's version. So did I but my German is not good enough to make a workable translation of the game in anything like a reasonable time and- much more important for me in 1984,- I had no idea where to get hold of an early nineteenth century copy of the original. So I owe Bill a lot, and remain grateful for his work, whether an exact reproduction of the original or not. I think Bill wanted to produce an affordable and workable copy for use as a game manual rather than an academic exercise, and this explains why he did not reproduce the German. Also I am not sure if would have had permission to reproduce a copy as I believe the copy he worked from was in the posession of the British Library. There was no print on demand available either in those days and doubling the size of the work would no doubt have doubled his outlay costs. No small consideration for a labour of love.

Kriegsspiel offers many fascinating insights into the history of gaming, into napoleonic warfare and the society of Prussia at the period it was developed. I am sure I will be glad to have an accurate and faithful translation of the original but I doubt whether I will play it as written (well perhaps once Smile as I prefer a more free kriegsspiel approach these days.

So I am sorry if I appeared confrontational or to denigrate your efforts. I simply did not and do not see why your work should be undermined by what appeared to be an attack on someone who did their best to introduce the modern English speaking world to a concept that had all but disappeared from the wargaming fraternity. I genuinely look forward to seeing your work and wish you well in your endeavour.

I remain,
Guy (not Bill Smile )
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Re: Volley effect

Post  TooFatLardies on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:14 pm

YogahofYag

I note that on another thread you are clamining that the Meckel map is also faulty. The copy of the Meckel Map that Bill used was one that was held in the British Library. He laboriously photographed this and then reproduced it by hand, drawing and colouring all of the sheets himself. As mentioned elsewhere Bill was a professional artist, so the end product is very nice indeed.

Frankly I am bored by your constant sniping and petty insults. I am particularly concerned to have been contacted by other list members who have told me that you have sent them personal messages insulting Bill and stating he lacked of professionalism. That is a very cheap shot, and I suspect that you will gain few friends from behaving in such a manner. Also you may find that attempting to destroy the reputation of one translation does not in any way enhance your own work.

To be honest I think the big diffference here is that Bill was looking to breathe fresh life into Kriegsspiel and get is played once again; he did this admirably. The vast majority of people here are interested in Kriegsspiel as a game rather than some laborious exercise in creating the perfect translation into Engllish. It woould serve you well to credit Bill for his efforts and then make positive attempts to build upon what he has done, rather than continue on as you are.

Richard Clarke
TooFatLardies


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Re: Volley effect

Post  YogahofYag on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:59 pm

Thank you all for the very kind words and kinder PMs! Smile
Encouragement is always most welcome with such a challenging endeavour.

What I was given by the Militaergeschichtliches Forschungsamt in Germany is the 1824 text with bookbinder's instructions, a very deficient errata page, and with three fold-out plates of illustrations. If some suspect that Mr. Leeson was using something other than the 1824 text, what could it have been? I was assured that the material sent from Germany was the only text with that title in their archives. I would like to compare what I have with the alleged text at the British Library. If anyone can provide a scan of even merely the first page or two I feel that may help to clear up this perplexing mystery.

As stated before, my translation is done and will be sent off to the publisher at the soonest possible time. I hope to have it released before the end of this year.

Why is it that we study military history and participate in wargaming? For some it is a leisurely activity, a mere amusement with which to while away a few hours in lassitude. For others it is the heartfelt act of paying respect to those men who sacrificed their very lives to defend their homes and families, a sign of appreciation for their industry and strength, and for their acuity of mind. I chose to pay homage to von Reisswitz by showing that same respect for what he has left behind. Wargaming should always be that sincere act of homage. Why would this Translator's efforts be motivated by anything else?

@TFL: PM sent.

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Re: Volley effect

Post  Guy on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:50 pm

Y.
I didn't have anything particular in mind re alternative editions. My speculation was based on the differences you say exist between your copy and the translation and trying to find a credible reason for them without sinking to casting aspersions on people's character.

I had always believed the edition Bill used was in the British Library but I now see that he mentions in a bibliography of Kriegsspiel that there are copies of the 1824 original at the Militargeschichtliches Forschungsamtes and the National Army Museum, Chelsea. It may be that my memory is poor and that he did use the National Army Museum copy vice anything in the British Library.
However, I note that in the same bibliography he refers to a copy of the 1828 supplement, published by other officers after Reisswitz's death, being in the British Library. I wonder if this was what he used? (although my impression is that as a 'supplement' it may not have a full set of the rules with it- I do not know).
What do you think? Have you seen a copy of the supplement and could this be a clue as to the variance?
I presume that there are no copies of Reisswitz's development rules used prior to the 1824 publication extant anywhere? (the elder of course not the son)
As for why people wargame - I suspect there are almost as many reasons as people. I cannot speak for Bill's motivation as translator and proponent of the Kriegsspiel but I am sure he intended no disresepect to anyone, particularly Reisswitz- given the tone of his general writing aout Reisswitz I suspect quite the reverse.
I'm not sure that I agree that wargaming should always be a sincere act of homage. It can be, but it can, and perhaps should, be many other things as well. I would not mock death and sacrifice of the soldiers, but sometimes a little mockery of the aggrandising self image of those who send men to their death for flimsy causes is no bad thing. I do not refer to Reisswitz here.

Guy
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Re: Volley effect

Post  YogahofYag on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:00 pm

I have not been able to locate a copy of the 1828 Supplement as it is quite the slippery weasel--even more so than the 1824 rulebook. Very Happy I had to call in some big favours to get a copy of the latter and did not want to tax fortune by begging for any more. I hope to include more material on ancillary literature--incl. the Supplement (provided I find it)-- in a projected 2nd edition, depending on what my publisher has in mind.

Best Wishes,

YoY.

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Re: Volley effect

Post  Tim Carne on Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:23 pm

The 1828 supplement is here (ensure you are looking in Band13 as there is also Band14 for 1828)

One page is out of focus and there is no dice table (as far as I can see)

http://books.google.de/books/download/Zeitschrift_f%C3%BCr_Kunst_Wissenschaft_und.pdf?id=Bjd53Fdj2-8C&hl=de&capid=AFLRE73HyyxwktMU-vqHZtwdh5DS4PLKRNEAaYXt_0cVIwwg73KbpYusdopVEEh5pVXxJCH4eWUy3HIkfONvW83FQHfaFa-JoVGlgKZ_ZwAhquj1Kv-8qyo&continue=http://books.google.de/books/download/Zeitschrift_f%25C3%25BCr_Kunst_Wissenschaft_und.pdf%3Fid%3DBjd53Fdj2-8C%26output%3Dpdf%26hl%3Dde

Having glanced through this whilst at the same time going through Bill Leeson's 1987 translation I get the impression that Bill's translation is true to the original.

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Re: Volley effect

Post  YogahofYag on Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:07 pm

Tim Carne wrote:The 1828 supplement is here (ensure you are looking in Band13 as there is also Band14 for 1828)

One page is out of focus and there is no dice table (as far as I can see)

http://books.google.de/books/download/Zeitschrift_f%C3%BCr_Kunst_Wissenschaft_und.pdf?id=Bjd53Fdj2-8C&hl=de&capid=AFLRE73HyyxwktMU-vqHZtwdh5DS4PLKRNEAaYXt_0cVIwwg73KbpYusdopVEEh5pVXxJCH4eWUy3HIkfONvW83FQHfaFa-JoVGlgKZ_ZwAhquj1Kv-8qyo&continue=http://books.google.de/books/download/Zeitschrift_f%25C3%25BCr_Kunst_Wissenschaft_und.pdf%3Fid%3DBjd53Fdj2-8C%26output%3Dpdf%26hl%3Dde

Having glanced through this whilst at the same time going through Bill Leeson's 1987 translation I get the impression that Bill's translation is true to the original.

Thank you very much for this. I will consider translating this as well in the future.

EDIT: I also found this...

http://www.archive.org/stream/zeitschriftfrku02unkngoog#page/n121/mode/2up

which has a poorer scan of the text, but a better scan of the tables at the very end. However, because the tables are apparently fold-outs, we are missing crucial information. No Does anyone know of another source for this book, but with the fold-out photographed in its entirety?

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Re: Volley effect

Post  Gamer2000 on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:20 pm

Can I ask as a newcomer, does this mean that you will be publishing the rules some time soon?

If so, will you be publishing support material like the maps or the scenarios that the Two Fat Lardies people produce? If so what maps are you planning to do? I would really like to get some blocks. Will you do them as well?

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Re: Volley effect

Post  Martin on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:49 pm

Here's an exctract from a kriegsspiel bibliography that Bill published many years ago, which indicates there is a copy in the British Library......

1828. Berliner Kriegsspiel vereins, Supplement zu der Bisherigen Kriegsspiel Regeln. Originally published in the Zeitschrift fur Wissenchaft Kunst und Geschielibe des Kriegs, 1828, vol. 13 (British Library ref.: pp 4021 d 1828).

Hope that helps

Martin

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Re: Volley effect

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