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08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

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08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:22 am



Grautzsch is a town of moderate size south of Leipzig near the river Pliesse. It stands astride an important crossroads that allows an occupying force to dominate communications in the area and make the occupation of Leipzig untenable for an opponent due to the road that runs east and joins the Dresden road between Leipzig and Oschatz.

Grautzsch is presently occupied by strong Russian forces; Napoleon has made this town his target on his march towards Leipzig and is advancing with two corps along the main road from Leutzen (from the south) with possible further troops behind.

The French must secure both fortified farms in the town to secure victory. The Allies must hold at least one of them to deny their enemies a victory.



More detail will be given in the private forums.

Please sign up on the attached Doodle Poll.

Thank you.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon May 02, 2016 1:13 am

We played Act I of this battle today; the French deployment and their grand battery bombardment, then the commencement of their attack. On the Russian side some additional troops arrived having heard the cannons calling from afar and the Russian artillery was completely outclassed by the French guard artillery; whole batteries being shot away. I have never witnessed an SoW artillery duel like it - it was something to behold and lasted a full hour, if not a little longer.

On the eastern end of the field the cavalry clashed and the Russians came off best leaving the French left flank divisions with very poor cavalry support, though they did have some. In the centre the French guard cavalry began their attack and came off better.

At this point we were forced to call a halt due to the game being horribly laggy and players running out of time.

We have a save game adjusted for losses and the start time and will resume at a later date.

Replay file:

Battle of Grautzsch Act I


_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  CaptainAndrew on Mon May 02, 2016 1:33 am

Will Carlos finally find his true purpose in life and marry Gabriela?

Will Andrea find out about Marco's affair with Silvia?

Find out next time on "The chains of love".
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon May 02, 2016 7:12 pm

Having talked on the Allied forum it seems that chaotic attacks and AI orders plagued both sides when the resume game started, not just the French. Given this I plan to make Act II into a stand alone scenario and adjust the positions of some units, generally pulling the French back a little from the town - only enough to stop the AI immediately attacking the nearest target - they will still be close.

I will make the assumption that bad weather ended the fight at the end of Act I and Act II is a resumed fight the next morning.

Some routed and captured units will return, but be in shaky condition (low experience and fatigued) and units will restock on ammo.

I'll create the scenario tomorrow and put up a Doodle when its done.

In future, please be aware, if a player leaves the game because things are simply not going right for them, or a restart doesn't live up to expectations and you choose not to play on - your side will lose. No ifs or buts. Last night's player quitting was rude, unfair to the opposing team and extremely poor sportsmanship. That side will suffer extra losses as a result. Do not do this again.

Thank you.

EDIT: Act II will be only 45 minutes long. I need to make it this short for the game to be fair to the Allied defenders who only had to hold onto the objectives for that long until the 2 1/2 hour scenario would have expired.


Last edited by Mr. Digby on Mon May 02, 2016 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon May 02, 2016 7:28 pm

After the first day's fighting the French have closed up against the south side of the town of Grautzsch, subjecting the Russians to an immense artillery bombardment which drove back the majority of their batteries and caused some loss to their cavalry. The French infantry and guard cavalry then attacked but their assault stalled when a heavy hailstorm poured onto the field.

In the evening both sides rested where their battalions lay. Stragglers regained their units in some cases and regiments that had routed or been scattered in melees and had their colours taken were regrouped though these troops remain shaky even the following morning.

During the night there was intermittent firing between the infantry picquet lines and few soldiers got much sleep. At least the Russians had the shelter of the town to crawl into and find a dry barn or empty stable.

Just after dawn the reports of regimental officers, quartermasters and surgeons trickled into headquarters: in broad numbers the French had suffered 130 killed, 1,000 wounded, 25 missing and 8 guns lost. The Russian losses were 270 killed, 1,900 wounded, 45 missing and 13 guns lost with a further 16 withdrawn from the field due to high crew losses.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mark87 on Mon May 02, 2016 7:44 pm

Then you have to make a restart rule. I will not play a restarted game when in severe contact with the enemy. It is not fair, or just, for anyone. Having all my units lose their commands, especially in fighting around a town, led to a situation where three cavalry regiments of the Imperial guard were mauled, all but destroyed, when before the restart they were under control, given waypoint commands, and returning to the rear losing minimal (aka ZERO) casualties.

The Hussars were engaged with a cavalry squadron and several battalions of infantry out of square; after the restart those three units were separated, leading to the cavalry to fight each other alone, and when the allied cavalry routed the Hussars were sprayed with bullets and canister losing a quarter of their numbers; this occurred after each restart we attempted.

Before said restart they were routing all three units and were in such a position that the Russian cavalry blocked any artillery. Also, before the restart that artillery was moving; after they had no orders so they were deployed immediately. In order to redeploy them the Russian commander would have had to had stopped the movement, which would have taken time.

In essence, playing from a restart totally destroyed the entire French battle. It was not rude. I'm not playing a game where we had everything timed perfectly and because of a crash restarted and proceeded to lose 35% of my troops, immediately, because the entire plan of battle is gone and they are all under AI control.

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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon May 02, 2016 7:55 pm

It is an equal playing field. The inconvenience affects both sides. To readjust the scenario would mean playing another day and would slow the campaign too much.

I am still convinced it was my PC slowing the game yesterday. I will get it upgraded during the week. I will also streamline the sprite usage in the OOBs so fewer textures are loaded. If we can defeat the lag the resume game issue is moot.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mark87 on Mon May 02, 2016 8:05 pm

We need to save often. I wouldn't mind a restart 10 minutes before, but when the crucial moment comes you cannot do a restart. And it always effects the attacking side more, especially in regards to artillery. The Russian artillery WAS moving back when we ceased: at the restart it deployed where it was and started firing. The French artillery was forming another gun line: at the restart it was splayed willy nilly around the battlefield, untced, deploying at will in horrible spots. I had to send 6 couriers just to tc my artillery to get them moving. I had to send 4 couriers just to tc/ give orders to brigades. Couple that with cavalry squadrons which were tced and given waypoint commands due to the pathing issues involving being around a town=impossibility of command. Couple that with five hours in the saddle of course I bowed out.

I could not command from that restart. The entire French battle was based upon methodical bombardment and a precision advance and was working to perfection. No guard infantryman was hit before the restart. Only one guard cavalry regiment had suffered over 10 casualties (Polish Lancers who led the charge that cleared out the guns). After the restart, in the five minutes I played, we lost 430 guard cavalrymen, 350 guard infantrymen and numerous couriers killed from me to try and reach these units. Essentially the entire guard, with the exception of the old guard infantry was under fire and completely useless.

Simply could not restart from that position.
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon May 02, 2016 8:12 pm

We have to make do with a piece of software that is not perfect. To go back to an earlier save might disadvantage someone else. To resume from the most recent save is the only fair and equitable solution for everyone. What if 5 minutes earlier the enemy had smashed a few French units and we went back to a save before that happened? See? We cannot go back to old saves, it is only fair to use the most recent so that as much of the original game is preserved.

Before the resume I could not do a save as we had a long time of massive lag during which I could not even type in the chat box. From the start of the terrible lag period to the resume point was only about 20 minutes and all during that time my game was not really playable.

As I said above, the situation affected everybody equally. We all had problems. Even me and my troops were in reserve! No-one else complained, we all just dealt with it. I will still award a defeat again if a player quits in those circumstances. I am not going to argue with you on this.


_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mark87 on Mon May 02, 2016 8:18 pm

I think can all agree that ten minutes before, roughly 10:45, before the French assault disadvantages no one. If we are in intense combat I don't think a restart can be done honestly. It's just not practical

It can not have affected everyone equally. Each players situation is different. I'm telling you that there was almost no way I could regain control of the garde without massive casualties and unfulfilled objectives. Impossibility.
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  scauispo on Tue May 03, 2016 1:55 am

10:45 strikes me as a good restart point for such a pivotal battle
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue May 03, 2016 9:47 am

When I talk of things affecting players equally I meant that no-one can know what will happen, everything that occurs is initially under the power of the game's AI and no-one can control those first couple of minutes. Therefore everyone is equally at the whim of the game engine, until they gain control by issuing stances or taking control of key subordinates.

A resume point ten minutes earlier would be no better as no doubt some party would feel disadvantaged by such a choice.

We don't have such a save point so all these discussions are moot.

I will play the last 45 minutes as a second day scenario as I said above.

I think also as a general suggestion players should wear their Kriegspiel hats more firmly and try to put aside the more competitive attitudes that these campaign games often generate. This is just a game after all and we are doing it for fun. Or at least you should be! A lose result for either side here is not the end of the campaign and both equally could win overall from a lost battle here.

I would respectfully ask all players to please take a deep breath, step back and put this in perspective.

I have decided the way forward from here, please respect that and we will resume the battle in a few days once a new Doodle Poll is populated. I will set the minimum criteria as 3 players a side and will not wait for the 2 original C-in-Cs to be present. Doing that kills the momentum of the campaign.

I am locking this thread. Do not start a new one on the same subject or post on this subject elsewhere.

Thank you very much.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:54 pm

Grautsch, The Second Day.

Overnight the Russians consolidated rearwards to more closely hold the town while the French gave some ground southwards so that, come the morning, their lower level commanders didn't feel the need to instantly hurl their brigades at the nearest enemy, something that had infuriated Napoleon during the fading light of the previous day.

The two armies are about 300 to 400 yards apart and much skirmishing and contact between the picquet lines occurred overnight. Prisoners were taken by both sides and so, by dawn, each knew with some accuracy the deployment of their enemy.

The day has dawned stormy and wet, unseasonably so and the threat of heavy rain hangs heavy over the field. If Napoleon is to capture the town and both its fortified strongpoints his commanders must act with fury and decision as it seems rain may bring the action to a premature close early.

(OOC:~ Scenario length is only 45 minutes as this is the incomplete second part of the first two and a half hour original scenario)

Positions:



Plans may be discussed in the relevant Grautsch threads of the private forums.

Here is a Doodle Poll, sign up or be defeated!

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:12 pm

We will play this battle tomorrow, Tuesday 7th June at 20:00 UK time. If I join the Russians we have 3 a side again which was just enough last time. One more each side is better.

See you in TS then.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: 08. Battle of Grautzsch - 14th May 1813

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:55 pm

On the morning of 15th May the battle of Grautzsch was resumed, the French assaulting the town with absolute ferocity and the Russians defending every building with equal zeal. Losses were very heavy on both sides. The assault by Compans' 20th Division of Marmont's VI Corps on the Russian right shattered Prinz Eugen von Wurttemberg's Russian Corps and entered the town, securing the road junction there and a fortified farm. In this assault the Russian infantry were bled white and Winzingerode's cavalry corps was broken and exhausted.

The Russian left was more strongly held where the Guard Cuirassier divisions supported von Berg's Russian I Corps and here the line held firm despite a ferocious French assault on the east end of the town and a critical road junction there.

At about midday a thunderstorm with heavy hail broke over the field and fighting fizzled out. Rain continued heavy and intermittent for the rest of the day and in the afternoon Napoleon, unable to prise his enemy from their tenacious hold of the town, ordered his army to fall back, the Garde withdrawing ahead of Marmont's VI Corps. The gallant Compans and his fine regiments formed the rearguard along with the Garde light cavalry. Compan's infantry were bitter and angry at having shed so much blood only to give up their gains and retreat.

Duke Constantin knew his army had been saved from complete destruction by the weather. Reviewing his troops that night he was visibly shaken at the losses. All the artillery had been mauled the previous day, the guard cavalry artillery had ceased to exist. Prinz Wurttemberg's was not in much better shape. Winzingerode's cavalry was ruined as was Wurttemberg's infantry. Only von Berg's corps was operational and that was due to the stout defence of his grenadier division which had held the fortified buildings on the Russian left with mindless determination. In supporting this defence the guard cavalry had been badly mauled.

Should the French choose to renew at attack here the Russians cannot possibly hold them back a second time.

French losses were moderate, though some of VI Corps infantry regiments lost more heavily. Their cavalry and artillery are largely intact.

Constantin had clearly been saved by the weather. The French have retired on Leutzen.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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