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AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:01 am

How did yesterday's second round at Posen go? I really wanted to play but was dog-tired. When to bed at 20:00!!

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:30 pm

It was a bit better for French this time.
file for the 1st part(before crash) is smaller - nothing interesting.. I've decided to send Phil+Galaxy South while I took the northern section... as I thought northern section would be defended with more attention. Turned out - yes, Kevin was there.. but on the other hand Mike had a battery of 12lbs Smile

2nd part of replay has all the fighting...

replay
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:01 pm

The French are a dishonorable lot with no sense of fair play.  Again I was set upon by both divisions.


The French were tasked with gaining control of the northern ford.  With this in hand, they would be able to move west and cut off Posen from the north.  The fate of the city would be sealed.  The Prussians, of course, could not let this happen.



It should be noted right from the beginning that I was minding my own business and not bothering anybody when I was assaulted by the strong odor of garlic wafting in from the east.



Now I can live with one annoying neighbor, but two?  As in the previous battle to the south, the French plan was to overwhelm a single division.



This time they attacked with all four of their brigades rather than three.  As my left was protected by a swamp, there wasn't enough room for all the French attackers.  That allowed the Prussian artillery to do their good works amid numerous stationary targets.  My division took most of the French abuse as Mike maneuvered his into a second defensive line.



At the end of the battle, my poor division was badly broken, but Mike's had hardly engaged.  The fat lady was singing in German. Posen is still safe, but the French are not yet finished. They will renew their assault on Sunday.

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:35 pm

Very sorry I missed it - looked like a great fight. Should be able to make Sunday's game.

Kevin - can you save these Posen scenarios and send them to me? Thanks.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:41 pm

I though I'd give you a key for Polish pronunciation for this map.

"W" - is always pronounced like "V" in English (it's the same as German, probably German influence as other Slavic languages use "V")
"CZ" - is always pronounced like "CH" in English
"SZ" - is always pronounced like "SH" in English
"CH" - is always pronounced like "H" in word "Helicopter" or "Horn" (not sure if it's always the same in English)
"RZ" - there is no corresponding sound in English, but in "Hostrzyn" because it's after soft sound "T", it's pronounced like "SZ" (so English "SH").
"Y" - It's the same like in English in word "SYSTEM"

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:40 pm

Thanks Miko, very useful. I had a few of those right but a few wrong.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:30 pm

Smolensk battle

Hey, it was hilarious yesterday as I did talk to you after battle but somehow did not realise that my microphone was muted until I was about to log out of TS...
few points:
1) probably one of the greatest flaw of SoW is the lack of hand-to-hand combat for forts/buildings that could be occupied - that's why I don't fancy the maps that are centred around battle for buildings...
2) My command decisions where heavily dependant on the river being fordable or not in other places than 3 marked fords/bridges on the map. Prior to battle Kevin said it was probably fordable, thus decision to not march for an hour to the map edge and back to the centre...
If I knew it's only bridges, I'd probably send Phil to the west and Kevin to the East. Me and Martin would stay at the bridge. I wonder how would that turn out - probably Phil would have his own battle... there would be 2 AI div v 2 Human divs fight for the town but probably less chaotic...

3) It wasn't bad at all... yeah, I haven't done much, just used artillery across the river... if there was more time I would consider passing more battalions under Martin's command. Probably surrounding the Town was a good option.
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:30 pm

I am not sure how much hand-to-hand combat there would have been. SoW's 'forts' were created specifically to model the buildings at Waterloo and those were pretty solid with no easily accessible doors or windows. The initial fighting at both Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte for example were extended exchanges of musket fire; there was simply no actual entry point for men to physically break in and use their bayonets.

Other built up areas would have seen melees and I suppose for these the normal SoW melee system works okay.

In a way the SoW forts really should be individual special buildings like walled farms, churches, granaries, monasteries and the like and not what has been done on the Meckel and Smolensk maps which is groups of houses around a courtyard. These types of areas really should not be classified as 'forts' in the game.

An error on the map-makers part in my view, rather than a weakness of the game.

I really enjoyed the game which I wasn't expecting when I realised how big the city was and how dense were its streets. I had the usual frustrations fighting the bloody interface and not being able to ride my horse where I wanted but apart from that, 1st person street fighting was surprisingly fun. I can see it wouldn't be to everyone's taste though.

Anyway, some pics. First a couple of Phil's division forming up in the valley near the monastery:





Next a view from the SE end of town looking north towards where Kevin and Phil were fighting. Two buildings are on fire and you can see that these are not the central cathedral whose blue domes are further into the city centre.



And a view looking west from the same location showing the first main E-W street inside the city that ran parallel to the river. The river is just to the left of the left foreground house. The grey bodies are Saxons and until I reached here and saw this I had no idea what kind of damage my troops inside the buildings to the left had been doing.



As we had 3 divisions to their 2 and they still controlled about half the city at the end of the fighting I think a clear 2:1 superiority is needed to attack built up areas.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:47 pm

I thought the battle was very realistic and much fun.

The river which was thought to be frozen over, turned out to have thin ice and was non-fordable, which was a nice twist.  The crossing of the Berezina and Ney's crossing of the Dnieper outside Krasny come to mind.  This resulted in the entire corps, 28,000 men, being forced to use a single bridge.  It resulted in a frustrating but real to life experience of how difficult it is to move a large body of men through a narrow choke point.

The attack on the city itself was a slow, grinding process of reducing each fortified building to rubble and then proceeding to the next.  It too illustrated how an inferior force could tie up a much larger one by defending inside towns and villages.


The start of the battle.  The enemy initially decided to oppose us in the open.  However our guns began to take their toll.


When the enemy saw that we were serious about going over there with a very large force, they wisely decided to redeploy and fight in the town rather than in the open where they had no chance.


Crossing the units over the single bridge was a nightmare.  Once over, I found that each battalion had to be TC'd and directed to an assembly point away from the action.


Once everyone was across, the division could be deployed in a line of battle and I could begin my assault.  By this time, about two hours after the battle scenario start, Martin has managed to clear the SE quadrant of the city.


By darkness, we had managed to clear half the city.  The guns did most of the work, reducing each building in turn.  Our forces would then occupy the rubble and move on to the next.  I find that my brigade commanders are far better at the job than I, so I don't bother the men much and just stay out of their way.  The only problem is that once the enemy has been ejected from a building, my men rush in to plunder the dead and drink up all the wine in the cellars.  It's nearly impossible to get them moving again.

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:09 pm

A battle in the smaller western town on this map would be something I'd like to try, perhaps with the 1807 OOBs.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:37 pm

The third part of the Battle for Posen was fought yesterday.  Superior Prussian linear tactics again won the day.  Frederick is smiling.


Mortier's VIII Corps was tasked with clearing the southern approach to the city prior to an assault on Posen the next day.  Opposing him was Ernst von Rüchel's Unabhängige Korps.  French success would be signaled by the French occupation of the marked objective.  This would force von Rüchel to withdraw inside the city's defenses.


With von Rüchel still unconscious from the previous night's drinking session, command fell on the senior division commander, Generallieutenant von Arnim.  He decided the korps was posted too far forward and ordered a redeployment closer to the city's defenses.


The French came on as they had in the previous battles by attacking a lone Prussian division with the greater part of two of theirs.  This time, poor von Larisch's division was the unfortunate target.  One of Drouet's brgades was tasked with occupying the attention of the 2nd Prussian division.


While poor von Larisch was enduring unimaginable suffering, an underhanded attempt by Labassée to move past the Prussian right flank and stab von Arnim in the back was made.  This does not surprise, as it is well known that the French are a race of assassins.


With the assassination attempt thwarted and night falling, the Prussians just managed to hold their position. The 18th century continues!

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:02 pm

Nice AAR, even with the heavy political bias Wink

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:13 pm

Nice battle - though causing Phil to go and play angry Beethoven afterwards Smile

I'll replace Kevin in positive rhetoric and say that Prussian decision to pull back to the inner circle of defences was a good one.
I think French had more chance to win if Prussians were more spread out, and shifting troops was more time consuming.
Probably knowing tricky terrain modifiers and assessing situation on Phil's section better I'd send the OG to north-west and attack Mike's flank/rear and keeping Kevin in check with my three batteries... instead we had an exhausting fight for "Reyevsky Redoubt" - which I must admit was very exciting till OG was beaten back by Prussian peasants Smile
Also if we had Martin's support that would help a lot.. as diversion by a brigade on eastern section under human control would make a difference.

GG everyone Smile
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:40 pm

Posen is safe.  The Prussian defenders again repelled a vicious French attack with superior linear tactics.  Sadly, this victory was marred by the cowardly display of Prinz von Oranien.  An inquiry into the matter has been launched by King Frederick.   However it is rumored that Queen Louise, the true power in Prussia, is smitten with the Prinz, so likely nothing will come of it.


The attack on the city's defenses was entrusted to Maréchal Bernadotte.  The Emperor even allowed two battalions of Old Guard to be used in this operation.  The Prussian defenders under command of Prinz von Oranien were stretched along a wide front but behind strong works.


As the French came into view and deployed a substantial number of guns, the Prinz lost his nerve and sounded a retreat back to an incomplete inner ring of defensive works.  Graf von Wartensleben was outraged.


As the Prussians redeployed, Général Leval quickly occupied the former Prussian defensive position and prepared to attack with guns and infantry.


The French attacked in three places.  A feint on the right was easily repelled.  The attack on the left slowly gained momentum and ground.  The attack in the center was fierce and soon opened a gap between the two Prussian divisions.  This gap was also devoid of any defensive works.  A critical point in the battle had been reached.


Even the rabble French under Leval recognized the weakness in the Prussian position and sent their troops into the breech.  These included the Old Guard.  However, Prussian linear tactics aided by Prussian courage caused one battalion of Old Guard to hoist their skirts and run away like frightened girls when touched by cold Prussian steel.  On the French left, the Prinz was paying the price for his rash retreat as his command melted away in front of Morand's onslaught.  Only his guns saved him.


As darkness fell, the Prussian defenses just held.

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:54 pm

Very annoyed I missed this battle. If there's a replay any time I'd like to take part.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Guest on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:48 pm

I had no idea how good those defense structures were and that is why I chose the higher ground to catch the french as they crossed the obstacle course of our defenses.

I had one INF REG hold in position almost 60 minutes before it retreated after being attacked several FR INF REG.

At that point I realized we might have been able to hold them in our starting position but I had to go with what I knew on the battlefield to make sure Posen was secured and it was.

The minister of anti CinC rhetoric has had his silver and milk maids rations reduced drastically until he falls in line with Miko's assessment of just how great a plan I had.

It would be interesting to fight that one again and to hold in place and see what happens.

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:56 pm

Sounds like the French need more troops though. Or maybe a few corps-level artillery batteries.

A situation where a well-entrenched defender has to endure a lengthy artillery bombardment is something we've never dome before AFAIR.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:40 am

The French had the corps' reserve artillery on the field. They had 8 batteries, a total of 54 guns. These were opposed by 4 Prussian batteries with 32 guns. I wondered what the result would have been if all the batteries massed and targeted one small area of the defensive works. Would it have punched a hole in the line that would allow a point of attack? Or would it have been mostly ineffective as the French massed fire on the Raevesky Redoubt had been?

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:57 am

Mr. Digby wrote:A situation where a well-entrenched defender has to endure a lengthy artillery bombardment is something we've never dome before AFAIR.

The scenario would have to last 4 hours with double ammo to test it. I opened up from 3 8pdr batteries on one entrenched 12pdr battery resulting in waste of ammo, causing no damage at all to Prussians... the battery closest to Prussian which was targeted by Prussians lost 2 guns in exchange.


Uncle Billy wrote:Would it have punched a hole in the line that would allow a point of attack? Or would it have been mostly ineffective as the French massed fire on the Raevesky Redoubt had been?

my money is on the latter - I don't think this game handles the concept of fire density - only games I've came across this were WW2 games - "V for Victory" series and "Operational Art Of War"
surely focusing fire will simply linearly increase the chance of hit...
we can test and see if there is any effect on entrenched infantry with mid-range fire of French 12pdrs... I think realistically, it should be about 20-30 minutes of softening defences while Prussian batteries trying to knock out French guns... and then assault Smile

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:22 pm

I wouldn't have expected 3 guns firing at entrenched guns to do any damage. But I wonder how much damage would come from 50 guns firing at that battery?

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:39 pm

I wouldn't have expected 3 guns firing at entrenched guns to do any damage.

you mean 3 batteries? - because that's what I wrote... anyway, I'm still pretty sure there is no "fire density" in SoW... 50 guns might have done some damage under condition that there is a real chance of single gun making any damage...
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:31 pm

Surely fire density must work in SoW. If you line up 3 batteries and fire each at one of 3 battalions lined up opposite on a perfectly flat plain, each battery should have the same chances of doing the same damage.

Now line up those 3 batteries opposite 1 battalion and it ought to receive 3x the losses.

Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the term "fire density"?

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:14 am

Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the term "fire density"?

yes, a bit...

With higher fire density the overall chance to hit should be higher.(now this is difficult to explain because what you described is also higher chance to hit but in different way)
Let me demonstrate it on tabletop war game with use of dice.
What is implemented in SoW is that you roll a die (for simplicity let's say it's D6) and you hit on 5 or 6.
So, you roll one die per gun - thus you've got higher chance to hit. (so with 50 guns you roll 50 dice)...

What "fire density" should do is increased chance to hit per gun if guns are massed... I won't give you perfect algorithm from top of my head, but let's say if you hit on 5s and 6s having 10 guns firing.. then you should be able to hit on 4s,5s,6s if you have 20 guns firing...

now this looks overpowered on D6 example... but in the game it's more like D1000 , having 100 canons firing at 1/1000 probability to hit is still miserable... if massing them increased the chance to 1/100 per gun it might hit something...
I think there's also method to calculate this as a "trade off" - instead of rolling separately for each of 3 guns that could hit on 6s, you can roll as a battery of 3 guns together, just one die but that could hit on 5s and 6s...

I hope this makes sense Smile


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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Uncle Billy on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:09 pm

At Borodino, 170 cannon fired at the Raevesky Redoubt from various directions for hours. The 18 guns in redoubt weren't silenced until the French cavalry entered it from the rear.

Firing at guns in fortified positions isn't a winning strategy. I think it would be far better to concentrate fire on formed troops instead. They are a much bigger target.

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Re: AARs - post here all after battle comments and replay files

Post  Miko77 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:29 pm

At Borodino, 170 cannon fired at the Raevesky Redoubt from various directions for hours. The 18 guns in redoubt weren't silenced until the French cavalry entered it from the rear.

fortified position is another variable (or several variables) in the equation... it should reduce/negate effectiveness of "fire density" as I described it...

Firing at guns in fortified positions isn't a winning strategy. I think it would be far better to concentrate fire on formed troops instead. They are a much bigger target.

agreed - that's why I said to try to concentrate the fire on infantry before assault... however they would be in the fortified position as well... but still interesting to try...
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