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I'm Confused About Something

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I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:35 pm

OK - I get it that the NoAI and Alphaomega being set to 1 to enable modifying a new scenario depends on the Sandbox setting being 0.  I've been playing around with it lately and find that changing the setting in the scenario.ini file does no good at all....for the most part.  As soon as you change the Sandbox setting back to 1 or 2 the game seems to "forget" the changes you made and much of it - but not all - goes back to the original locations/formations.  It is almost as if there is another file somewhere - a default file if you wish - that takes control.  The problem is I can find no such file.

The editor creates a scenario which seems to contain everything that the scenario needs to function.  Transferring it to the KS mod folder is fairly straightforward.  Running the scenario with NOAI and Alphaomega on 1 generates a new startlocs file.  I have tried this two ways:

One with the little program which overwrites the scenario file and also by just copying and pasting the relevant data from Startlocs to the scenario.
Both work perfectly as long as you don't change the Sandbox setting to anything else but 0.  As soon as you do, it ignores the changes even though those changes remain in the x and y colums and formation columns of the scenario.csv .

It's a computer program.  It has to be reading data from somewhere but the scenario.csv as modified does not match what appears on the screen.  I'm tempted to restart my computer to clear the memory after moving a few units around just to see what happens.  Any ideas where to look for this "phantom file?"

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:06 pm

Nothing is wrong with your procedure or computer. It is a failing of the game's programming. If you use sandbox=1, 2 or 3, the program uses the division commander's position and default formation for the starting location of the brigades and battalions. There is nothing that can be done to change it. It's very frustrating and has existed since SOWGB 1.00. NSD has no real interest in sandbox mode as they think everyone just wants to play scripted scenarios.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:46 am

I've gotta admit that is pretty damn silly programming work. So that is why it seems that entire divisions will move to the general location they are given but individual regiments/batteries will not?

Even that may be helpful information. Now I have to spend the rest of the night on an experiment.

Muchas gracias.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:56 pm

So here is how I have solved the problem.

Originally the scenario began at 15:00 hours.  I changed that to 14:30 hours and put in a Atcommon for the Prussians at that time.

The French divisions had generally gone where I wanted them even with the NoAI and alphaomega set to "1" ( two in front - two in reserve in one French corps ) so that was alright.

The half hour gained allows me to position the battalions of my forward division at Mont St. Jean  where I want them and in the formation I want them and to set up the artillery batteries without Prussian interference.  

At 15:00 I have set up a Atcommoff order for the Prussians and also given the Prussian C-in-C  style and experience ratings akin to Napoleon.
We'll see what kind of a difference that makes.

While I was at it I also commanded one Prussian column to attack the second objective at Braine L'Alleud to give Lannes' corps something to do so they can't interfere in the main battle too soon.

Initial tests have been positive.  It looks like I can roughly position divisions via the NoAI routine and fine tune the positions by scripting in a dead period to make small unit changes.

Again, thanks for your insight on how this program works or doesn't work!

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:13 pm

The test run worked.

I need to TC the French so they don't start running around like chickens with their heads cut off as soon as the Prussians come into sight and I need to change the activation time of the objectives. All of which should take a couple of minutes.

I have designed this for MP with my son so each of us commands one French corps.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Uncle Billy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Sorry for more bad news, but scripting only works in SP not MP.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:38 pm

Really? We've already run through an army level Ligny scenario and the Prussians seemed to behave according to the script. Or is it a KS thing?

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Uncle Billy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:46 pm

The Prussians were just following a randomly chosen battle plan. Scripting for MP would cause de-synchronization of the computers and NSD never bothered to debug the problem and fix it. It's been this way since SOWGB 1.0.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:52 pm

I'm rapidly losing my appreciation for their "talent."

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Uncle Billy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:01 pm

They have talent. They're just too lazy to apply it.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:15 pm

That's almost worse.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:09 pm

Not sure they are too lazy to apply it, I think its more like they know there are issues but are too obstinate to admit their initial design was flawed and refuse to make improvements. Norb, their head man, is a very stubborn fellow. He has a thin skin too which means he does not take kindly to any non-positive criticism.

That being said, even with all its shortcomings, SoW is still, for my money, the best RTS game ever made.

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"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:22 pm

Okay - so I used the NoAi=1 and alphaomega=1 to move the six French infantry divisions and associated artillery reserves to the general area of where I wanted them AND moved the Prussians backwards towards the edge of the map. It took about a half hour to accomplish what I wanted then I hit the L key. I also gave the Prussian commanders a very aggressive style just to see if that would get them off their asses.

I applied the new startlocs and everything seemed to work. I figure I have 30-45 minutes when the game starts to adjust the formations of my lead division and put everyone else on TC so they don't start running around when the Prussians show up.

In general, when I began it worked. The Prussians did duly turn around and march back towards Mt. St. Jean. Now the trick will be to see what happens when I switch it to MP.

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Confused about something?

Post  WSH Baylor on Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:55 pm

Hell, I'm confused about everything!

J
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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:57 pm

Once again, Mr. Digby, your guidance was invaluable.

We finally got our schedules together - holidays suck - and tried the game on MP. It worked wonderfully. The Prussians made their appearance in about 20 minutes which was a bit faster than predicted but still long enough to get the batteries positioned and infantry in square on the flanks of the guns and in line behind the batteries. The Prussians made several headlong charges down the road from Waterloo to Mt. St Jean and it was a bloodbath. It's amazing what canister can do to tightly packed formations. The AI actually gave up on the frontal assaults and started fanning out east and west of the road but they were a spent force by then. Casualties were over 30,000 Prussian to just about 5,000 French. Not that there weren't some tense moments. I gave the Prussians a 30k advantage in numbers when setting things up just to keep it interesting.

Anyway. Thank you again. NOW, I think I understand what I'm doing!

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:07 pm

Quick question: Why is the "Lay Down" command disabled? Clearly someone went through the trouble of putting it on the toolbar in the first place.

How can Wellington say "Up guards and at 'em" if they aren't laying down in the first place?

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:22 pm

Historically except for the Brits, the infantry stood and faced the fire. The Brits do lay down, everyone else faces danger like a man.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:25 pm

ROTFLMAO!

Okay.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Miko77 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:26 pm

- In 1812 at Borodino, skirmishers of Russian 19th Jager Regiment were attacked by French cavalry. Colonel Vuich ordered them to lay down on the ground. The cavalrymen rode over them making little or no harm. The jagers stood up and fired at the French.

the concept of lying down against cavalry precedes Napoleonic wars... if I remember correctly there was a case in 7 years war...


and these were actually columns laying down hiding from artillery fire (no wonder because both were bloodbaths caused by artillery)

at Borodino, the Polish Vistula Legion were ordered to lay on the ground. Officers remained standing.
at Wagram the Austrian 47th Regiment laid down on the ground


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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:06 pm

Yes, some units did, but they were rare. SoW (and all wargame rules for that matter) should follow usual, common practice, not the unusual incidents. I had a discussion with someone on a forum recently who wanted to have squares in a SYW game because he'd read of an incident of a unit forming a square. It was quite hard to dissuade him of the bad effects on his rules of this idea.

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"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Miko77 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:39 pm

I remember playing some tabletop rules and players explained me that variety in infantry drill was really limited at the time of SYW...
however this: http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Prussian_Line_Infantry_Drill#Forming_square - shows square... but if they were ever used it's a different story... I guess cavalry tactics was also different to napoleonic...
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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:17 pm

That's right. The problem is that our computer wargame rules are different from real life. In real life officers at the company and battalion level are able to make their own decisions and so, rarely, we get these occasions such as you pointed out where some officers order their troops to act in ways that are very uncommon. Generally speaking, Napoleonic troops did not lay down for the purpose of concealment or protection and this was due to the notions of the day of manliness, honour, soldierly behaviour and similar concepts that to us are now alien.

With paper, pencil and dice rules the player can add in a random die roll to permit such decisions if he wants but in SoW we can't. All units have to lay down or they don't, we are unable to mod the game to give flexibility. If we allow one unit to lay down, they all do, so we have to go with what was customary and common in Napoleonic warfare and not what *might* be done by a low-level officer who thought outside the box.

Same with that person and his intentions to let SYW infantry form square because he'd read an account of it being done. The issue is in 99% of cases it wasn't done so which would be the correct decision in a set of SYW rules? Obviously the one that covers 99% of situations and not the one that covers 1%.

I think it would be great if we had the ability to mod SoW so that in a random tiny number of circumstances, unusual things happened, such as Austrian columns laying down under fire now and then, but we can't, and I think it would be wrong to give that decision to the player who represents a higher command level than the one at which these sorts of decisions were taken.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:10 pm

So the ability to lay down is what? A unitattribute or something? I forget because since I discovered KS I haven't played vanilla in like forever, but do the French and Prussians lay down in vanilla?

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:43 pm

All units lay down in the stock game. Only the British cower in KS. It's a function of the drill formation that they use.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

Post  rschilla on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:50 pm

I think I have it. So if I had a British unit in KS and ordered them to lay down they would?

It was confusing because the lay down/stand up buttons are big as life on the toolbar but in a scenario between French and Prussians the French wouldn't lay down and the Prussians would rather stand there and get the shit shot out of them by French artillery than lay down.

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Re: I'm Confused About Something

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