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British OOB and troop ratings

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British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:23 pm

A recent post-battle discussion highlighted a general dissatisfaction with the British troop performance in SoW:WL, in particular the infantry.

I have taken the Anglo-Allied (excluding Prussians) 1815 OOB and made quite a few changes, mostly to infantry and artillery stats. Cavalry mostly left alone though I downrated the Dutch heavies and some of the Hanoverian hussars which were ranked as good as British cavalry where I feel they should not be. I'd like to test these new numbers in a couple of games and we can discuss.

There are a few units missing. Where there is a 95th Rifles Btn in a brigade there is no converged flank coys unit. This is incorrect as there should still be a flank coys unit in addition. We will need to add several units plus their names to the OOB and xml file. Kevin, do you wish to do this or shall I?

The brigades affected by this are:

1st Corps:
3rd (Anglo-Hanoverian) Division
2nd KGL Brigade (Ompteda)

2nd (Netherlands) Division
2nd( Nassau) Brigade (Berhard of Saxe-Weimar) --- small layout error with the parentheses

2nd Corps:
2nd (Anglo-Hanoverian) Division
3rd (British) Brigade (Adam)

Reserve Corps:
5th (Anglo-Hanoverian) Division
8th (British) Brigade (Kempt)

5th (Hanoverian) Brigade (Vincke) --- is only a Landwehr brigade but should it have flanquers or a 3rd rank sk unit?

6th (Anglo-Hanoverian) Division
4th (Hanoverian) Brigade (Best) --- ditto

In more detail I have uprated the British artillery experience and marksmanship and adjusted some of the Dutch Belgian arty both up and down where I thought it wasn't in keeping with the British.

I gave all light infantry units the Brown Bess 1811 Light musket or the French Charleville_sk rated weapon as I feel this is a reflection of tactics and skills rather than the actual weapons carried.

Kevin, I note that the "_sk" rated weapons used to have a 10m range advantage but this has been removed without us being notified. Can this go back please? I put in the extra range for a reason.

The British infantry I have beefed up considerably, esp experience, firearm and marksmanship ratings. The Highland units get an edged rating bonus as well. I have improved the Dutch Belgian Jagers/Chasseur units a little and taking into account the very good performance of the Nassauers defending Papellotte/La Haye I have beefed the Nassauers up quite a lot. The Brunswickers get a small uprating too.

If we find these changes create an army of supermen we can always tweak downwards until we are happy but I feel that British infantry in a good defensive position ought to be extremely hard to beat without a heavy artillery bombardment in prep of an attack and a good cavalry advantage.

Once we have an agreement on the numbers I can work on the Peninsular OOB.

I have not yet changed the SQN OOB but since the cavalry is hardly touched this is not much additional work.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nvo1jpliqyxgc7/OOB_SB_KS_NAP_Belgium1815_British.csv?dl=0


Last edited by Mr. Digby on Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Miko77 on Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:52 pm

I hope this will work well and then Peninsula OOB reworked...
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:04 am

People are welcome to try this in single player and report back.

Forgot to mention I have doubled most of the converged flank coys units strengths from ~200 to ~400 and taken the equivalent numbers from the centre company battalions. All brigades should have the same total strength. This also makes the 700-800 man battalions more manageable. Some of these converged flank units may now be historically over strength but the way the game plays the smaller units are not very useful as we all know. ("God is on the side of the big battalions")

I was thinking more on a related subject yesterday and wondered if the 2-deep line formation is in fact a hindrance to the British. Because the game walks every sprite to its position, a 2-deep line takes noticeably longer to form than a 3-deep one as the sprites have further to walk. This of course is historically nonsense and is a weakness of the game. I believe all the sprites fire in a line, whether its 2-deep or 3-deep thus the game engine gives a 3-deep line several advantages over a 2-deep one.

Perhaps we should use a visually incorrect but more game-friendly 3-deep line for the British? I have noticed in a few games my Brits taking fire from a French line while some men are still wandering along looking for their place in the ranks. Its quite frustrating.

The only way to be sure of the full effect of a 2-deep line in the game is to keep it still! Pretty much impossible in the way SoW plays with flank attacks being the norm rather than the exception.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:47 pm

We should play a few games and see if the British are now overpowered.

The British 2 line formation delivers more accurate fire than the 3 rank formation and is reflected in the mod.

It's not apparent to me that forming a 2 rank line would take the same amount of time as the formation of a 3 rank line. The soldiers on the end have a longer distance to travel to get into position. Since maintaining order at all times was the highest priority, I doubt those soldiers would be allowed to run. In this regard, the current situation balances things. The Brits have greater firepower at the expense of needing more time to bring it to bear.

The major problem with the game in this area is that troops in line are allowed to rotate and march at the same time. That never happened in real life and there is no way to change the game mechanic.

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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Miko77 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:19 pm

citation from http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_4.htm#infantrycombatlines :

Officially the British infantry was formed in 3 ranks. However during the Napoleonic Wars they had their infantry formed on 2 ranks only. (At Waterloo most of their battalions were formed on 4 ranks.)
French General Foy wrote: "The [British] infantry, although on system formed 3 deep, like the other nations of Europe, is more frequently drawn up in 2 ranks; but when making or receiving a charge, it is frequently formed four deep. Sometimes it has made offensive movements, and even charged columns, when in open order."



I wonder then if line was the universal but flexible formation for the British? would they charge in line? (what was the formation they used at Salamanca when charging?)
If it was line, then maybe 2 versions of it should be available for British - 2 ranks when deploying for defence and fat line of 4 ranks when wanted to have more mobility, charging or simply there was no room to deploy in 2 ranks...
charging with open order seem suicidal Smile
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:01 pm

"Open Order" here means a column of companies spaced apart in depth, not more space between each man.

I think the British could deploy their lines as fast as other nations could deploy theirs. There was always a rapid pace in drill books for changing formations which always were conducted briskly and I feel sure that in times of urgency at a very rapid rate (forming square possibly). In addition it was less about how many men were involved but more about the sub-divisions of the battalion and how the drill book called for these to be manoeuvred.

Given how long the British had adhered to linear tactics and still used them, even after hard experiences such as the 1770s and 1780s in N America against very rapid and sometimes elusive opponents, it seems to me that they would have by this point have a slick system in their toolbox for dealing with times when rapid manoeuver was necessary.

I am not sure we need balance in the game if two opponents were essentially not balanced like-for-like historically. There are very few instances of a French attack on a defending British force enjoying success. Our rules need to reflect that rather than ignore it or try and massage it away. There is no attempt to balance the 1808 Spanish vs the 1808 French and in some cases imbalance produces more interesting games (except when its Landwehr vs Middle Guard of course!)

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Miko77 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:37 pm

"Open Order" here means a column of companies spaced apart in depth, not more space between each man.

that makes more sense

I think the British could deploy their lines as fast as other nations could deploy theirs. There was always a rapid pace in drill books for changing formations which always were conducted briskly and I feel sure that in times of urgency at a very rapid rate (forming square possibly). In addition it was less about how many men were involved but more about the sub-divisions of the battalion and how the drill book called for these to be manoeuvred.

agreed that it would be excelled by 1800s... I wonder what was the method - would they march perpendicularly to the planned facing and then just turn sideways?(it seems applicable pretty fast, but probably can't do this in SoW)... if reforming from column then British 10 companies intuitively would need more time than French 6 or Russian 4... but again, the drill and discipline might nullify this disadvantage...
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:05 pm

Links to drill manuals:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=128566

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:54 pm

From the various amounts of infantry combat I saw in the Meckel game on Friday I was pleased with the changes to the British infantry. They seemed to deal out much more damage with their firepower although still strangely twitchy when it came to morale.

I don't think the rest of you saw much action with your Brits did you?

We can try that game again tomorrow Kevin if you want to tweak the setup to prevent unloadable saves, or we can try my scenario on the Cold Harbor map.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: British OOB and troop ratings

Post  Uncle Billy on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:58 pm

The problem is somewhere in the Meckel map. I suggest we use your scenario instead. Just make sure you remove the 10's from the Guards.

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