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MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

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MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:14 pm

1st Battle of Manchester

A fictional scenario for 8-10 players.
Pipe Creek Add-on required!
Length of Play: 150 minutes
HITS and Courier gameplay as usual
Used mods: Latest Couriers and Maps mod & a special Flag mod (will be sent by mail)
Please start SOW in Fullscreen mode



Trailer: It is July, 1861. Just months after the start of the war at Fort Sumter, the Northern public clamored for a march against the Confederate capital of Richmond, Virginia, which they expected to bring an early end to the rebellion. Yielding to political pressure, Brig. Gen. Irvin McDowell led his unseasoned Union Army across Bull Run against the equally inexperienced Confederate Army of Brig. Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard camped near Manassas Manchester Junction.



The available positions are:

USA
1 CinC (acting Corps Commander)
2 Division Commanders
+ Brigade Commander(s)

CSA
1 CinC (acting Division Commander)
1 Division Commander
+ Brigade Commander(s)

Division Commanders should be ready to command some troops directly. The scenario is designed that the AI will take some of the brigade commanders slots.


The CinC (Commander-in-Chief) will be tasked to develop a strategy and write battle orders some days before game launch.
  • 1 week before the game: If there are roughly enough players, I will assign all committed players to teams, appoint the chief commanders, and then send the initial briefing to players by e-mail. CinC begin to write their orders and assign players of their team to available slots. Additional players may still join the game up to 3 days before the game start.
  • 1-3 days before: Players receive their orders from their CinC. If there aren't enough players committed to meet the minimum requirements, the game will be cancelled.
  • 30 minutes before game start: Meet in the K/S teamspeak lobby - strategy discussion and questions

Please follow this doodle link to register: http://www.doodle.com/4fbpgi8czpm4byau

Everyone is welcome, but you are required to play at least 1 MP sandbox game with the HITS group before.
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:21 pm

Hi guys. I know it's summer time and it's been a bit quiet in the forum, but there should be enough time to play one scenario, right? Very Happy
As you might guess, this new scenario is inspired by the 1st Battle at Manassas - but it's still fictional!
This is the first scenario which will require it's own mod to play - I will test it before in MP to see if it works as designed.
See you.
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:59 pm

You will need to fix the dates. I assume this will be August.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Uncle Billy wrote:You will need to fix the dates. I assume this will be August.
Thanks, it's fixed now. Kevin, you will need to register again your dates.
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Khryses on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:29 am

Registered.

Do you still want me to try to fight a HITS sandbox game beforehand, or can I claim exemption there?
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Blaugrana on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 am

Thanks, Stefan. I'm afraid I'm away on holiday the last two weeks of August, so won't be able to take part in this game. I hope to get back in the saddle once the summer's past.

Jeff
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Martin on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:53 am

Thanks Stefan. I can make a couple of the time slots.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:55 pm

It looks like Saturday, 18th August, 1930 UK time will be the time!
There are currently still 2-4 open slots.
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:08 pm

Surely we can get more interest for this game than 6 players?! Please go to the doodle page link Leffe gives above and log your availability.

As a CSA player I was also assuming I'd get some orders from my C-in-C by now...

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:35 pm

Digby wrote:
As a CSA player I was also assuming I'd get some orders from my C-in-C by now...
That's the problem with joining in the rebellion of an agrarian society. There is a noted lack of basic infrastructure. I recommend that you resign your commission and volunteer for service with industrial dynamo that is the north. We have, not only fast and reliable communications, but our beer is far better.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:22 pm

I had an excellent game last night though it may be a different story from the Union players POV.

Thanks to Stefan for writing the scenario. With the mixtures of early Rebel flags and mixed uniforms all over the place it looked spectacular. The different flags led to one incident of genuine confusion for me. I just wish I hadn't forgotten how to take screenshots! I was hitting alt-f8 and I think it must be shift-f8!

The game was somewhat unbalanced in the Confederates favour due to the strength of their position but if we added a further Union brigade and a battery and/or dropped a few of the Rebel regts by a morale point it would definitely be worth replaying.

The same style of scenario but perhaps using Antietam Creek or Rock Creek on the Mac Map to represent Bull Run could also work. You'd just have to mentally swing the map through 90deg so the Union came from the 'north'.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Baldwin1 on Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:41 pm

It's F4 for screenshots Martin.

I would say there was too many general sprites for my avatar, any more than 1 and it gets distracting and confusing. Obviously I did my best with Tyler, but I'd prefer just 1 AI brigade from here on out if/when commanding a division. Probably should have switched with Kevin. But I'll bet no one could have taken that ridge with the way it was setup. As Han Solo once said "...more like suicide". Just my two cents, but I appreciate the time and effort that goes into the scenarios.

I am looking at Mac Map or full scale Gettysburg as well for the 4v4 2nd Manassas battle this weekend, as it is less hilly and the road network looks similar for some battles.


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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Martin on Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:50 pm

I can imagine playing a division with such raw troops was quite a challenge, Baldwin. I found it tough with just Sherman's Brigade. After the first regiment broke for the rear, I never had all of them under command again. They all did rally a number of times (actually maybe too many for green troops?), but never at the same time. I was torn between trying to rally broken units, and staying with the rest to try and stiffen their backbone. But perhaps that's how it was?

I nevertheless enjoyed the scenario and would be keen to try it again. One possibility would be to allow the Union to use the whole map, to permit an outflanking march. This was after all the actual Union plan at 1st Bull Run.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:36 pm

I did take some screenshots and will post a battle report as soon as I find the time...

From my POV as the designer: The battle started out as 1st Bull Run but ended like Fredericksburg Surprised Surprised
I agree the game was in favor of the Confederates, especially because the hilly terrain and the capped map. As suggested by Digby the battle should take place in a more flat place. Maybe the Mac Map, but without fences and walls. If there is interest I can also create a more balanced battle again for the Pipe Creek map.
As those are MP scenarios, it is not that easy to assess the balance before playing it first with human players.
For the first time in one of my scenarios, I relied heavily on AI commanders in the 1st Manchester battle, as I thought it would fit to the less orchestrated and more chaotic style of the real battle. What are the opinions on this, do you prefer an OOB with only human officers?
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:53 pm

I enjoyed the battle even though my troops made a mad dash back to Washington City for Happy Hour. After the first 20 minutes of battle, it was apparent which side would win that day. The rebel forces were just too strong. Perhaps on the Kansas map the Union would have had a chance, given their superior numbers. But the combination of good defensive ground and better quality troops is a tough one to overcome.

Your quite right that it is difficult to balance an MP scenario before it's played. It was a good first effort and an interesting scenario. I would enjoy playing it again after you've modified things. Two changes I would suggest is to make the capture/protection of Manchester a priority for both sides. That would allow the Union forces to maneuver and pull the Confederates off their ridge. The second change would be to lower the quality of the confederate forces a bit as we discussed after the game. I don't think the position is impregnable if the forces are more equal in quality. If not, then I think the Union side numbers would need to be 50% larger than the rebel's with better quality artillery added.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:50 pm

Just curious why you'd remove the fences and walls from the Mac Map, Stefan?

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:24 pm

Mr. Digby wrote:Just curious why you'd remove the fences and walls from the Mac Map, Stefan?
I think the many fences would slow down the battle too much and make it too static. I didn't want that for the 1st Bull Run. Just my opinion.
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Martin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Leffe7 wrote:I did take some screenshots and will post a battle report as soon as I find the time...

From my POV as the designer: The battle started out as 1st Bull Run but ended like Fredericksburg Surprised Surprised
I agree the game was in favor of the Confederates, especially because the hilly terrain and the capped map. As suggested by Digby the battle should take place in a more flat place. Maybe the Mac Map, but without fences and walls. If there is interest I can also create a more balanced battle again for the Pipe Creek map.
As those are MP scenarios, it is not that easy to assess the balance before playing it first with human players.
I would like to play the scenario again, and I do think it would be good if Stefan made some changes for replayability. But I don't think we should worry overmuch about balance. Very few ACW battles were balanced, whether in terms of terrain, numbers, troop quality or anything else. Sometimes some of these factors offset others and things evened out, but mostly probably not. That's war.

If as here, one side had the tougher job, it's enough for me that this is recognised in the post-game discussion. As it has been here.

A personal view, and I appreciate that others may see things differently.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:56 pm

Battle Report of Col Willcox, 2nd Brigade, 3rd Division, Army of Northeastern Virginia (US)

General McDowell's plan (Kevin) was to attack the Confederates north of Manchester with 2 strong pushes, one led by 1st Division (Baldwin) and 5th Division in the center, and 3rd Division more to the west.

The arrival of the 3rd Division under command of Col Heintzelman (Niall) was delayed since none of our recruits were accustomed to marching. Foul maps even misled 1st and 3rd Brigade to march the wrong way and they headed through forrests and creeks instead using the road right in front of their nose (in the first attempt of the scenario). Eventually 3rd Division closed the distance to the 1st and 5th Division who were ahead and was moving to get on their right flank.


Obviously the 1st Division was preparing for a full scale assault over the Bull Run Creek to attack the Confederates defending the heights behind the creek.



Col Heintzelman led 1st and 2nd brigade beyond the Bull Run Creek and we spotted a strong Confederate position on the hills in front of us. On the left side covered by forrest were two artillery batteries and Bee's brigade. To the west of Bee, soon Jacksons brigade appeared on the crest. Also some Rebel Cavalry under Col Stuart was skirmishing here and there.



A frontal attack uphill through forrest and cannister fire seemed suicide so we halted our advance to find an alternative. Meanwhile we sustained some minor casualities from artillery fire from atop the hills. I discussed with General Heintzelman that we can only try to flank the Confederates since Jacksons flank was hanging in the air. My brigade was tasked to lead the way and I moved west through a little village. Covered by higher ground, I pushed for the crest to the west of Jacksons position. I arrived there without problems. For a short amount of time I had the chance to turn Jacksons line and attack him in the flank. But he saw the danger and pulled back in order.



I put three of my regiments in line and waited for some time. Support form the rest of 3rd Division was still far away. While I was waiting I realised two things.
First, fighting on top of the crest may be an advantage when fighting downhill, but currently the enemy was relative on even ground and my left and right regiments didn't even have a clear line of sight due to the terrain here.
Second, when I looked to the south there was not a single enemy flag in sight. The road to Manchester junction was free. I was about to propose to Col Heintelman to detach my brigade and head off to secure Manchester.
But in the meantime Jackson took the initiative back and advanced on me.



It was a concentrated attack, but I held the line with my 4 mostly green regiments, some of them still wearing the grey uniforms of the cadets. Finally Col Howard managed to get his 3rd Brigade into action and deployed to my left, attacking Jacksons flank. 1st Brigade joined the attack on the left, facing General Bee's brigade supported by many guns. 1st Brigade even had to keep an open eye on Stuart's cavalry since they threatened to capture our guns if they became undefended.



Jackson fell back again, this time to another elevation on the crest where he joined Bees Brigade and other elements of Johnston's Division. Howard pushed on, while my men had to rally for a moment. As soon as possible I advanced again, supporting Howard in the center and on his right flank, but we were fighting mostly uphill against a determined foe.



The decisive moment of the battle was imminent. Some soldiers reported a saying accredited to Confederate General Bee: "There is Jackson standing behind a giant stack of soldiers. Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer. Rally behind the Virginians!!"



The enemy position proved to be too strong and our brave young men attacked in vain. Soon our lines collapsed and Howards and my brigade fell back to our guns a bit to the north. There we tried to hold the line but surrounded by three sides the situation became more and more hopeless.



Even worse we found out that 1st and 5th Division were also in full retreat and elements of General Beauregard's army were arriving in this sector to wipe us out. The order for a general retreat was given but the order was never heard by most of the men since they were running non-stop to Washington on their own.
This war will definitely need more than one battle to be won!

Your most humble servant
Col Willcox




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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:17 pm

Great report. I had totally forgotten about writing one from Genl. Johnston's POV and must get down to that at once!

I think most players in our group appreciate this but to those new, or who play with us only occasionally, please do not stack your units up in the same space, with their lines crossed over and intermingled. Please make every effort to stand each regiment side by side or if you are defending elevated ground, behind each other with a space of 20yd or so between each. A little overlapping at the ends of formations is okay, a few files here and there, but command control would soon be impossible in a situation where regiments are intermingled.

I wonder if our forum could use a sticky thread that sets out all our agreed house rules for our online games? Would that be helpful, do you think?

Thanks to everyone for participating in this great scenario.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Martin on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:59 pm

Mr. Digby wrote:I wonder if our forum could use a sticky thread that sets out all our agreed house rules for our online games? Would that be helpful, do you think?
Perhaps you're right, Diggers. Are you happy to produce an Aunt Sally draft?

I see you commented on the range radar thing in another post, and I tend to agree.

Someone on the NSD forum has suggested a houserule for GCM players limiting how far forward of their troops players should ride. That seems like a good idea to me. It's a historical constraint, and would also make the game even more interesting, as it would increase the likelihood of tactical surpise, if players cannot range far and wide. This would also give more purpose to cavalry as you could use it in its traditional scouting role if you had a regiment to accompany you when you ride forward.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Leffe7 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:50 pm

I support a house rule for restricting generals scouting ahead without accompanying own troops. I find it odd when an general is literally dancing around in midst of enemy troops without being shot or caught. But the house rule should allow a player to move freely in "secure" zones, when troops of his own side are nearby.
  • Maybe 400 yards and/or in line of sight from own troops?
  • And if you can see enemy troops you must stay closer to friendly troops than to the enemy?


About the radar: I wasn't aware this could be toggled off. Yes we can do that too. Do you still know on which target a regiment is shooting at?
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:40 pm

I'm generally in favor of the scouting and radar rules.

I fully agree that brigade commanders should remain within 400 yd. of his troops while on the march. But once they are deployed, it is not unusual for the division commander to send them out beyond the lines to see if the enemy is anywhere nearby. Since scouts are not modeled in the game, there is not much of an alternative. I would proposed that in these circumstances, the scout not be allowed to approach any closer than 400 yd. of the enemy, unless surprised.

The no radar rule is fine, but I would suggest we waive it for a new player for his first 5 or 6 games with us. It's difficult to judge distances in the game. A short reprieve would give him a chance to acclimatize to our style of play.

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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Yes, I'm in favour of generals scouting because there is no other means of recon modelled in the game and an officer miles out in front can represent picket lines and cavalry patrols. Remember the player concerned is placing himself at a disadvantage as he's not able to move his brigade at all until his messengers make the long ride back.

I agre that brigadiers should remain with their brigades on the march and only go scouting once the brigade is posted in a position or otherwise temporarily halted (perhaps for a rest).

I would only ask/suggest that if you bump into enemy via a short LOS incident that you withdraw your general at once to a location closer to your own troops and never knowingly ride behind or through enemy troops. If the fastest way back to your own lines is via a round-about route to avoid going through the enemy then you must take that longer route.

I turned the radar off the minute I knew how (its in one of the options screens) as I found it completely unrealistic. Rangefinders were invented later! You should judge visually how far away an enemy is or which enemy your boys are shooting at.

As a group hosted by the UK Kriegspiel Society I think this rule should be enforced and no arguments, its really a no-brainer in terms of immersion, and is up there alongside using couriers instead of instant comms, no icons on the mini-map and not toggling trees off.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

Post  kg_sspoom on Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:36 pm

Well if my guys were stacked count it as inexperience playing hits/couriers. I problably gave
a brigade attack column order where they line up close and had not spread them out yet.
Plus I'm still not as comfortable/capable with the limited views and don't see things as well
as the more regular H/C. players. I'm not sure I'm comfortable turning off the range finder
especially for the casual or new H/C player. We also need to remember that balance between
immersion and playabilty is necessary to keep new players interested and not overwhelmed.
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Re: MP Scenario 4: 1st Battle of Manchester (August 2012)

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