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Campaign update 10/4

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Campaign update 10/4

Post  Father General on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:34 am

Everything is up and running and the first moves are in to my box.

Tonight (or this morning for some of you) you should have received 3 emails from me to your personal addresses. The first is a simple test, the second was intended to carry a spreadsheet attachment with everyone's names and emails. The third actually had the attachment. Don't laugh, I know you've done it too.

Following that, I deleted everyone's email addresses as they were posted on the site. Some of you had privacy concerns and I can appreciate that. I, for one, will never share or sell your email address to any third party. I cannot guarantee what Gen'l Georgia will do though...

Note: Martin James, Leffe, and Grog have been added since the sheet was sent out.

There has been a request to modify the battle map assignments to include the 10 Mile Map. Originally I did not wish to include the map, but it appears I have sold the map short based on my brief inspection of it. I have decided to include it now.

In addition to the new battle map assignments, listed below, I have had it suggested to me that I augment the ruleset with a series of rules that are listed after the new map assignments.

As per my own rule and to prevent sudden rule changes, new rules and alterations can only happen with the consent of BOTH corps commanders. I will only otherwise intervene if the campaign is outright broken, which I cannot envision.

Therefore, I need the corps commanders of both sides to review and approve, or deny, the changes listed below. Corps Commanders, you also have line-item veto power.

CHANGES:

The following nodes will now feature the 10 Mile Map

8 AND 10
38 AND 40

New gameplay rules. Note these rules are pretty standard and unspoken in KS games.

1) Always play the game in full screen mode, never in a window.
2) Never toggle trees off, though this is permitted temporarily to find and give orders to your own units (as in, to click their flags).
3) Try to get used to playing the game with the rangefinder off.
4) Use whisper channels to speak to another player when your avatar is beside his.
5) No use of teamspeak unless your general is alongside another players general.
6) The only exception is a verbal 'officers meeting' after the game starts but before any troops move. Once you order your troops to move, cease verbal comms unless next to another player.
7) No mass charges - Only ever have 1 unit initiate a melee at a time. Once that unit's fight is over you can initiate another.
8.) No stacking of infantry units or overlapping. Use the 'align left' and 'align right' buttons if needed.
9) Guns should never park behind infantry and fire through them unless they are significantly higher or further back (say 100 yards and then never fire canister through).
10) Generals may ride as far out in front of their brigades as they wish but pay the obvious penalty of not having quick control over their units. Scouting generals must never pass through or behind, or approach within musket range of an enemy (say 150 yards) unless its another scouting general. If a player finds his general is behind the enemy (easily done on the Foxs Gap map) he must withdraw the way he came at once.

Corps Commanders, what is your word on this?

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UPDATE to the update

Post  Father General on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:29 am

Both sides have completed their first turn. I have the CSA second turn. USA needs to make theirs. I am holding the CSA until Union catches up.

We should be in very good shape tomorrow. I am enjoying watching the movement on the strategic map and anticipating what none of you can yet see. :-) Being umpire does have its pleasures!

-Neal
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  MajorByrd on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:22 am

Would that be one regiment at one regiment at a time or one regiment on the whole battlefield?

I can not see how I shall be able to reign in my valiant Union boys when those rogues in grey are nearby!
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 am

That's one regiment per brigade.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:05 pm

The gameplay rules are just the house rules that we have always used. I didn't realize they might not be used in the campaign. Of course I am in full agreement with them. Will you be sectioning off a part of the 10 mi. map when we play on it? With the small number of troops that we have, we could easily spend the entire day looking for the enemy.

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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  MajorByrd on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:14 pm

Mr. Digby wrote:That's one regiment per brigade.

Alright.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Leffe7 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:10 pm

Father General wrote:7) No mass charges - Only ever have 1 unit initiate a melee at a time. Once that unit's fight is over you can initiate another.

I still don't understand rule 7. Let's say 2 brigade with 4 regiments each are firing at each other. Then I could only send 1 regiment to charge 1 enemy and the others must wait behind? Whats the reason for this?

I agree with all other rules.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  kg_sspoom on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:09 pm

I'm with stefan on this one when the rebs have the experience a 1on1 Melee is a sure lose for the feds. Multiple regiments charging was not a rare sight IRL. Atleast from what I have read. That being said it doesn't mean I support "division" sized charges either.


Last edited by kg_sspoom on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : stupid cell phone is a bitch to type on)
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:21 pm

Its a rule I use in an attempt to cut down on both too many melees and mass charges generally. I wanted to set myself a standard beyond which I woulodn't go, unless of course someone else charges me. Occasionally the AI will do what it wants but I only ever click th echarge button on on eof my regimnents at once, then let that melee conclude before I instigate another.

Saying to myself that only 1 regt at a time can be sent into a melee was an easy thing to measure.

I never initiate charges anyway unless I'm capturing guns, or if an enemy has charged me and won and I send in a counter charge to beat them back. 99% of the time I use muskets as I consider that both more historical and fairer.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  M.Jonah on Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:01 pm

Sadly the old argument raises its head one regiment in melee at a time is unrealistic in many ways as it does not depict what would have really happened. Now I am no expert but in the minimum size I would expect would have been brigade size melee. One regiment against another is probable only until the stage that a support regiment could arrive to help.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Uncle Billy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Since melees were such a rare occurrence, they should not be initiated against other infantry regiments. The AI is quite able to that all on it's own. Like Martin, I never charge anything but the guns. Otherwise, we are going to simply have an ancients battle. With fire from the flank and rear being so devastating in this mod, a few casualties drive back even veteran units. Maneuver is much more effective.

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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  kg_sspoom on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:26 pm

If troops are anything less than volunteers I doubt they Will get close enough to melee. Since they Will run before even closing to rifle range.
Going by the Antietam scenario we played a few weeks ago that is..
I couldn't force irregulars to stand and fight for more than a few minutes,
even when they did stand and shoot they didn't hit anything.
They just stood and took casualties without inflicting any in return.
Even when I out numbered the rebs my irregulars got slaughtered.
Hopefully the feds aren't saddled with troops of such low quality that they are impossible to use with any effectiveness.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Father General on Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:10 am

I will start you in some proximity. Not at the edges.

Neal


Uncle Billy wrote:The gameplay rules are just the house rules that we have always used. I didn't realize they might not be used in the campaign. Of course I am in full agreement with them. Will you be sectioning off a part of the 10 mi. map when we play on it? With the small number of troops that we have, we could easily spend the entire day looking for the enemy.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Blaugrana on Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:19 am

I'd prefer rule 2 to say:

Trees are to be left 'on' with no toggling.

I started a thread for this and opinions were in favour. Do corps commanders agree?

Jeff
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:34 pm

M.Jonah wrote:Sadly the old argument raises its head one regiment in melee at a time is unrealistic in many ways as it does not depict what would have really happened. Now I am no expert but in the minimum size I would expect would have been brigade size melee. One regiment against another is probable only until the stage that a support regiment could arrive to help.
In a way it isn't up for discussion. These are the rules by which the HITS & Couriers group always plays, so if you're in the campaign, you're bound by them.

You are all aware that melees were very rare in the ACW, and often comprised mostly point blank fire with a few scuffles around flags, guns, etc. We try to ensure they are rare in our games. They still happen far more than is historically accurate because we often play vs the AI and the AI tends to initiate melees too much, but we do our best to not initiate them with players, or at least not with too many units, hence the rule.

I understand the umpire is going to penalize, presumably in terms of losses, units that melee, or players that melee too much, so it's wise to not do it very much.

Given that melee is almost always an advantage to the Rebs, the Union team should embrace this houserule with glee as its fully to their advantage.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Leffe7 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:01 pm

I am ok with rule 7 if it is written like this:
7) No mass charges - Only ever have 1 regiment per brigade initiate a melee at a time. Once that unit's fight is over you can initiate another.

It just doesn't make any sense to forbid one player to charge if someone else is just charging at this moment.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Father General on Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:06 pm

Mr. Digby wrote:
M.Jonah wrote:Sadly the old argument raises its head one regiment in melee at a time is unrealistic in many ways as it does not depict what would have really happened. Now I am no expert but in the minimum size I would expect would have been brigade size melee. One regiment against another is probable only until the stage that a support regiment could arrive to help.
In a way it isn't up for discussion. These are the rules by which the HITS & Couriers group always plays, so if you're in the campaign, you're bound by them.

You are all aware that melees were very rare in the ACW, and often comprised mostly point blank fire with a few scuffles around flags, guns, etc. We try to ensure they are rare in our games. They still happen far more than is historically accurate because we often play vs the AI and the AI tends to initiate melees too much, but we do our best to not initiate them with players, or at least not with too many units, hence the rule.

I understand the umpire is going to penalize, presumably in terms of losses, units that melee, or players that melee too much, so it's wise to not do it very much.

Given that melee is almost always an advantage to the Rebs, the Union team should embrace this houserule with glee as its fully to their advantage.

I want in all things for commanders to try to think and act historically. No matter how good a program is, it can still be "gamed" and manipulated to personal advantage in spite of history. Gentleman's rules and house rules help ensure this.

So far, I haven't seen anybody really stand up and argue in favor of mass charges anyway. We could be debating a bit hastily. All that's needed is for Stefan (Leffe) to accept rule 7, and then we go with it. It can be argued it's an official HITS and Couriers thing, which I know it is. However, that was never written out. Rule 7 then simply covers a base formally -- one that has always been covered, but unspoken. This just puts it on the record is all.

I, for my part, fully support it. In my personally opinion it is already part of the campaign rules, but I want to make it clear with the adoption of rule 7.

-Neal
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Father General on Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Leffe7 wrote:I am ok with rule 7 if it is written like this:
7) No mass charges - Only ever have 1 regiment per brigade initiate a melee at a time. Once that unit's fight is over you can initiate another.

It just doesn't make any sense to forbid one player to charge if someone else is just charging at this moment.

Oh and there we go.

At this point it's in stone.

Rule 7 is adopted, only 1 reg't at a time in melee charge.
Specifically: 7) No mass charges - Only ever have 1 regiment per brigade initiate a melee at a time. Once that unit's fight is over you can initiate another.

-Neal
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  WSH Baylor on Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:29 pm

I have refrained from joining this discussion as I don't really have a "dog in this fight." However, there are several historical instances when more than 1 regiment was involved in a melee/assault which involved hand-to-hand combat. For example, naturally Picket at Gettysburg, Burnside at Sharpsburg, Grant at Mine Run, Fort Stedman, Saylor's Creek, First Virginia Brigade at Henry Hill, Stonewall Brigrade on the receiving end at 2nd Manassas in the railroad cut, etc., etc., etc.. List is actually nearly endless and goes from 1861 through 1865! To say otherwise is simply delusional!

What am I missing or not seeing in this discussion? Having played H&C for several months, I do not see the massive column charges in the days of old GCM games as all agreed that was not the normal methodology of the war (as well as being "gamey"), but I do not recall any formal or informal rule precluding a brigade (or more than 1 regiment) otherwise charging.

To preclude more than one regiment per brigade being involved in a melee/charge at one time is simply "pure horse hockey!"

Help me out in understanding this dictate!

J

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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  M.Jonah on Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:43 pm

Charging in gcm has pretty much ended as in now its far more tactical but does still happen. Right now having one regiment in a charge is more unrealistic although there are many records like Jack pointed out of recorded charges on mass there are also records where individual regiments in lead regiment of a brigade advance where the lead regiment may instigate a charge to cover knowing that behind them the next regiment in line would follow them in.

If you do not want to charge its fine but restricting other players from using a valid tactic at a strategic point of the battle is a bit much . My point being that if your first regiment breaks into the enemy line then they will need help to carry the fight rather than make a fruitless charge for nothing.
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Uncle Billy on Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:53 pm

Charging is not the problem, it's the melees. Charging was quite common in the 19th century, but it almost always resulted in the attacker stopping mid way and begin firing or the defenders falling back. In SOW it always ends in hand to hand fighting with one side routing. Since we can't fix the result, we have to limit the cause. Otherwise the confederates simply launch a massed assault in every battle. I for one am not interested in such a game.

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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Beefstu on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:10 pm

Thank you Uncle Billy , you hit the nail on the head. Even me the biggest anti-mass charger i know agrees with this. The tactic was never the problem, it's the fact that the game doesn't represent the tactic properly . The tactic became a problem when it was used to dictate every single MP game we ever played .

But , in all fairness the tactic was used . We finally fixed this problem in GCM . Now your regiments are exhausted after melee and have no gas left to roll a line. Incredibly simple fix .

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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:51 pm

Lets just try and avoid initiating too many melees. I know that in HITS and especially in wooded terrain two sides can collide accidentally and in fact most of our melees happen in these circumstances because you often can't see the enemy nor exactly where your units are heading and the auto-charge function kicks in and takes over.

Jack, you're quite right, we all know hand-to-hand fighting took place but if you begin to list these instances by name, that's just a way of illustrating how rare they were. How many battles ocurred where there wasn't any significant melee? Or where charges were ordered but the troops didn't come to physical blows.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  M.Jonah on Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:58 pm

All i am trying to put across is the restriction is unreal and Martin of all people knows i am not a fan of massed charges and prefers to shoot it out but the facility should be there as a valid and accurate tactic and demonstrated by Jack. To restrict it is not the right way to go about it.

-Mark
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Re: Campaign update 10/4

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:17 pm

The issue is if we don't restrict it, we could be the victims of massed charges. These have been dealt with by GCM's more recent changes but in HITS we play mostly with vanilla values, so the opportunity to do a mass charge remains. Our group has a gentlemans agreement that we don't charge much, if at all, unless guns are a target. For this campaign new players have joined the group who haven't played HITS before. If every player in the campaign would post here stating as you have done that they promise not to mass charge then we should be okay, but if some don't do that we must make the house rule a firm one.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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