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Toggling trees

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Toggling trees

Post  Blaugrana on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:57 am

As a mere colonel of PBI in the campaign currently underway I didn't want to comment there on one of Neal's suggested rules 'codifying' general Kriegspiel practice. Viz:

2) Never toggle trees off, though this is permitted temporarily to find and give orders to your own units (as in, to click their flags).

I hate fighting in woods and not being able to see your own regiments' flags - it drives me mad. However, just a few seconds without trees can sometimes completely transform your knowledge of a battle. I do it sometimes in SP and you often discover the exact location of enemy troops you had no idea about. Once you know they're there, you can't forget!

That then completely spoils the fog of war caused by being in trees in the first place. I wish tree toggling could be disabled by the host for our games, to ensure a level playing field.

What do people think?

Jeff
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Re: Toggling trees

Post  FlashmanKBE on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:17 am

I completely agree. I would go further and say never, even for placing your own men. I mean, it's not necessary, and it's unrealistic:

"Captain, instruct Maj. Rightflank to march to that spot right there."

"Where sir?"

"That way, you see the spot?"

"No sir?!"

"Clear the trees man! Use the T key! There, you see it?"

"Ahhh... yes, I see now, I will go and instruct him that this location exists, and to march there."

"Splendid. And I'll try to forget that an enemy division I had no idea about is marching towards me..."

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Re: Toggling trees

Post  Martin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:26 am

Yes I very much agree guys.

A lot of the fun and excitement with HITS is the ability to make unexpected attacks (or even be hit by them). Toggling off the trees, for whatever reason, can blow all that away in an instant.

Also, woods fighting was difficult, and avoided where possible precisely because it was so hard to control the troops. At Chickamauga, where the battlefield was wooded to an even greater degree than usual for an ACW battle, this occured a lot.

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Re: Toggling trees

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:17 am

If we want the ability for the host to lock trees 'on' we need to raise a request on the NSD forums, to ask for that option to be added.

I would be in agreement with having it, even though more chaos would result.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Toggling trees

Post  kg little mac on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:21 pm

Only commanding 4 regiments makes it easy to find them for giving orders by using the arrow keys, so if it's no turning off trees ever, it shouldn't be that much of a pain.

mark
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Re: Toggling trees

Post  Grog on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:15 pm

Just wanted to clear in my mind the mechanics of wood visibility.

It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that enemy units will be shown on the 3D view if any of your army's units can see them. Thus turning the Trees off would give you privilege to information even way into or far beyond a wood.

I am also unsure if a wood causes any line of sight penalty for areas beyond the wood.

I know that the scale of the battlefields are not 1:1 and therefore some would argue that this applies to height scale (therefore reducing dead space beyond woods) but in HITS games I prefer to assume we are playing 1:1 with all the implications of line of sight.

I would be strongly in favour of a Trees Toggle option block. Although, it would be difficult to enforce and many might succumb to the temptation when in a tight spot, if agreed, I would support a complete 'ban'.

I agree that we need to have this high up on our NSD HITS requests as an option to the host.

Mike

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Re: Toggling trees

Post  Blaugrana on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:09 pm

I'm glad I asked :-)

If there is a consensus in favour of a campaign gentlemen's agreement rule that trees are always left on, could both the corps commanders propose this slight adjustment in Neal's post:
http://forum.kriegsspiel.org.uk/t427-campaign-update-10-4
I don't want to break the chain of command for the campaign.

Jeff

Re the feature request, I can't imagine it'll be a priority for NSD but we should ask.


Last edited by Blaugrana on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Toggling trees

Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:14 pm

I think LOS is calculated at realistic heights - that is, around 6 to 7 feet. The sprites are much bigger, variously mentioned on the forums at around 9 to 12 feet. This is why an enemy regiment can suddenly pop into sight very close, marching along a sunken road near you, for example. The men appear very tall but the game only draws them on your screen on the assumption they are 6 feet tall.

I've had my general go out on patrol before and be just 50 or 100 yards from a sunken roadway and the enemy has teleported into sight, then gone out of sight again and I think, "How in heck didn't I see them 100-200 yards back?" Its because the actual units is much smaller than the sprites.

To keep the visual picture sensible all trees, fences, buildings, etc are much bigger than in reality. This is why, in game, Gettysburg town only has less than 100 house models in it, when the real place had several hundred. On the game map it covers the same scale area, but th emodels are just 2x the size and bulk to match the sprites.

And yes, an enemy unit will be visible to you in a forest a mile away if one other friendly unit near it has a LOS to it. It would be a much better game if each friendly unit had a unique LOS calculation done for it but the game engine would probably grind to a halt with all the extra calculations.

The unit details screen you can go into shows if your unit is visible or not to the enemy. Keeping your brigade in defilade or woods is a good way to surprise the enemy though its a bit gamey to be told the enemy can't see you. I'd like that info to be removed as well.

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The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Toggling trees

Post  Grog on Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:13 am

Thanks Digby

That clarifies quite a lot.

I've not played the Antietam sunken roads yet but I did also wonder how units might fire out of these to any real distance because they seem very deep when i have viewed them.

I don't have time this weekend to try cos i am working long days, unfortunately.

Enjoy your game this weekend fellas

Mike
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