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OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

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OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:15 am

OFFICIAL RESULT - Battle of New Market

Union victory

Confederate forces must retreat, but will do so in good order. I have requested a victory result be applied to the Union OOB and a draw result to the Confederate OOB.

In addition, the following spoils are distributed:

UNION DIVISION
-3 Brigadier promotions
-3 Weapons upgrades to Enfield(CS) or Springfield(US)
-2 Units named (e.g. Iron Brigade, Stonewall Brigade, whatever, etc.)
-All level 2 troops increase to level 3
-The town of New Market


CONFEDERATE DIVISION
-2 Brigadier promotions
-2 Weapons upgrades (ibid.)
-1 Unit named (ibid.)
-All level 2 troops increase to 3
-A nice walk in the opposite direction

Hays, if you have any stats available, feel free to post them or send them to me.

Thanks all, great game!

-Neal


Last edited by Father General on Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  MajorByrd on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:51 am

Hard to choose whom to promote. The Father General is naturally beyond promotion and so is the Scallywag Weather. I'll promote Hays, sspoom and Palmer! They earned it.

Why was the Rebel performance considered a Draw? Didn't hear the discussion so I'm guessing it's either because of the casualties, which would make no sense though, or the fact that they clung on to that small piece of ridge above the College?

Well, anyways, nice game. Guess we might have to consider starting later to attract more Americans. I won't mind on a weekend. But controlling 3 Brigades, 4 Batteries and directing the battle wasn't fun at all...When I started my attack, I left to Brigades to AI control and they did horribly. I could hardly get them under control again; which might of course be a result of my lack of experience as well.

Still, people should only sign up if they can make it. Maybe we'll see more when we adjust the starting time or add more Division commanders to share the load.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:44 am

The reason for granting a draw result in the OOB calculation is to acknowledge the fact that the two armies were quite disengaged and the Confederates retained a rather substantial holding on the outskirts of town. Their position was very tenable, and had they wished, they might have stayed for another day! Given that, it was assumed that the majority of their ambulatory casualties as well as missing were recoverable and that they made an orderly retreat.

Regardless, the victory is still Union, and the Confederacy lost. The actual numbers difference between the results is probably measured in the mere tens column, and is more a token of acknowledgement than a significant changer.

In any case, the Union now has a growing advantage, should they maintain the momentum of success.

-neal
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:48 am

The primary reason for Confederate retreat from the heights was not the loss of the town, but rather the illogical notion that they would use their position to indiscriminately shell it in an effort to inflict casualties on the Union, for in so doing, they would terrorize and kill their own people. With shelling the town a poor option, and the situation stalemated at nightfall, the only logical choice for the confederates was withdrawal. Trust me, they didn't want to leave, but what could they do but kick rocks unless you were to oblige them by attacking?

Tomorrow is a new day, both forces are intact.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  M.Jonah on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:26 am

I would love to have joined but you know my starting times Sven sorry i could not be there to help.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  MajorByrd on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:11 pm

Honestly I thought the Rebs would already put up a fight at Blocher's Knoll or whatever it's name was. I was banking on them trying to prevent us from crossing the creek but they bailed to the best ground there was at the first sight of our flanking columns. We just attacked the heights because my English sucks and I misunderstood somethin'. But I'm for fighting rather than not fighting, so even if we lost 800 more men the cause is well served.

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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  mitra on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:00 pm

Thanks for the battle, guys. Especially thanks to 12 pounder pieces on my left flank which made a carnage Very Happy


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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Blaugrana on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:36 pm

Congratulations on the magnificent victory!

I'd love to hear who fought, how it went and read any AARs. I hope I can make the next battle.

-Jeff
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:36 pm

MajorByrd wrote:Honestly I thought the Rebs would already put up a fight at Blocher's Knoll or whatever it's name was. I was banking on them trying to prevent us from crossing the creek but they bailed to the best ground there was at the first sight of our flanking columns. We just attacked the heights because my English sucks and I misunderstood somethin'. But I'm for fighting rather than not fighting, so even if we lost 800 more men the cause is well served.

We didn't 'bail', we were not given the option. We were not allowed to deploy to defend Rock Creek, which is probably the position I'd have chosen had we been allowed to place ourselves anywhere on the map. I argued strongly to defend the town as well.

I am a little annoyed by the umpire overruling our generals on their threat to make the town untenable by shelling it from Seminary Ridge, civilian casualities or not, this is war and in war these things happen.

I think if a C-in-C says he wants to take a certain course of action he should be allowed to. If the umpire thinks its a poor one he can add in some penalty somewhere else to represent the effects of such decisions, for example forcing the CSA to always leave a garrison in New Market because of unruly townsfolk being disruptive or something.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  MJ1 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:00 am

Mr. Digby wrote:

I am a little annoyed by the umpire overruling our generals on their threat to make the town untenable by shelling it from Seminary Ridge, civilian casualities or not, this is war and in war these things happen.

I think if a C-in-C says he wants to take a certain course of action he should be allowed to. If the umpire thinks its a poor one he can add in some penalty somewhere else to represent the effects of such decisions, for example forcing the CSA to always leave a garrison in New Market because of unruly townsfolk being disruptive or something.

While not involved in this campaign or playing SOW I am following it with great interest as I have run many Map and Paper games down the valley and have read around the subject.

Digby I can understand you comments in a "pure game" view and if this campaign was held just as a game fair enough.

However, if I have understood the nature of the group and how this campaign is being run you are running it using the prism of the period to try and re-enact as it would have been. If this is the case the umpires ruling is spot on. There is no way that a CSA General would have even contemplated such a course of action!!! The valley and the people is their home and they were fighting to defend it from the Union forces who would have done such a thing. You would have been lynched as a traitor by the men manning the guns!!!

In the campaign your forces should be getting better intel as locals will be riding to your lines letting you know what the enemy are doing and if you are playing it as a period game then you must act in a period manner!!!

Wink

Just my 2p from an independent observer....

Really glad the battle was fought and you managed to get one under the belt as a logistical nightmare trying to get everyone into the game at the right time....

Hope this campaign continues and people can make allowances in trying to get so many different folks together in something like this where each person can have strong views on what should be done...

I look forward to more banter and feedback from the battle and the rest of the campaign....

Smile

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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:15 pm

MJ1 wrote: There is no way that a CSA General would have even contemplated such a course of action!!! The valley and the people is their home and they were fighting to defend it from the Union forces who would have done such a thing. You would have been lynched as a traitor by the men manning the guns!!!

I am without a doubt this is absolutely true. The civil war was no ordinary war -- but then what civil war is?

-N-


Last edited by MJ1 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wrong source shown. :))
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  FlashmanKBE on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Father General wrote:OFFICIAL RESULT - Battle of New Market

Union victory

Confederate forces must retreat, but will do so in good order. I have requested a victory result be applied to the Union OOB and a draw result to the Confederate OOB.

In addition, the following spoils are distributed:

UNION DIVISION
-3 Brigadier promotions
-3 Weapons upgrades to Enfield(CS) or Springfield(US)
-2 Units named (e.g. Iron Brigade, Stonewall Brigade, whatever, etc.)
-All level 2 troops increase to level 3
-The town of New Market


CONFEDERATE DIVISION
-2 Brigadier promotions
-2 Weapons upgrades (ibid.)
-1 Unit named (ibid.)
-All level 2 troops increase to 3
-A nice walk in the opposite direction

Hays, if you have any stats available, feel free to post them or send them to me.

Thanks all, great game!

-Neal

I believe we lost some guns - don't forget to make the appropriate adjustments (though I'm not sure how many were successfully limbered and galloped away by those Yankees!)
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:24 pm

I don't think there's any way to fairly simulate the spiking of guns.

In the past, (my previous experience in SOW) as captured gun was simply captured. I know there can be issues with attaching the guns to a commander, based on OOB structure, but I see this argument against handing them over as splitting a hair.

Historically, the guns would have been appropriated by the other side, no matter what the OOB structure was.

The only thing I could do would be to roll a die and apply a result, but I don't think that would be fair after the fact. Also, it would be a rule change and require the consent of the corps commanders.

For now, the Union has 5 shiny new guns.

Don't like it, then take them back! :-)



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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Leffe7 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:09 pm

Father General wrote:
For now, the Union has 5 shiny new guns.

Hi Neal.
I'm with you that captured guns should transfer sides.
But the guns weren't captured, they just disappeared from the battlefield. Not to mention that this ground was held by Confederate Forces when the battle came to a standstill.
I suggest you either create an OOB where the capture of guns is possible, give the guns to the side which claims that part of the battlefield in the end or roll a die to see how many of them were destroyed.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:07 pm

Leffe7 wrote:
Father General wrote:
For now, the Union has 5 shiny new guns.

Hi Neal.
I'm with you that captured guns should transfer sides.
But the guns weren't captured, they just disappeared from the battlefield. Not to mention that this ground was held by Confederate Forces when the battle came to a standstill.
I suggest you either create an OOB where the capture of guns is possible, give the guns to the side which claims that part of the battlefield in the end or roll a die to see how many of them were destroyed.

To keep the guns on the field requires an artillery commander be attached to the division at some level. I am not sure what the precise requirement is.

I don't know how much OOB manipulation we can do without speaking to Hays first. I don't want to put the man though cleaning the Athenian stables again, if it can be avoided.

-Neal
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Hays on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:30 pm

Father General wrote:OFFICIAL RESULT - Battle of New Market

Confederate forces must retreat, but will do so in good order. I have requested a victory result be applied to the Union OOB and a draw result to the Confederate OOB.

Hays, if you have any stats available, feel free to post them or send them to me.

-Neal


I’m afraid I didn’t envisage one side winning and the other side been awarded a drawing when I wrote the coded for this feature.

For this battle unless there are strong objections I’ll record it as a draw. Both sides agreed to a cease fire which allowed the recovery casualties and the shepherding of deserters back to their units. (There will still be a random factor applied to the returns, just no bonus or penalty applied)

I need to do some work on the code for the Battle report. Hopefully I’ll be in a position to issue some stats by the end of the week.

With regards to the allocation of captured Artillery this would be a lot of work to allow the Master OOB to be adjusted in this way. I’ll add it to my list of things to do but I don’t see this as been possible in the short term.

I would suggest we need to give the consequences of captured artillery some further thought.

Currently captured units, Infantry, Cavalry & Artillery suffer a reduced random probability of deserter/wounded returning to their units.

This is the same regardless of the type of unit.

I could look at implementing a further reduction for Artillery units that are captured. This would have the effect of making those units less efficient when used in the next battle. (Less men to man the guns)

Any thoughts?

Hays
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Friedrich on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:43 pm

I had happened confessed directly besides that has as it.
The artillery has himself simple dissolved into air.
Because of this, she has been destroyed into my eyes.
Since we didn't have any chance to destroy her or to conquer back.
One could this keep her long-term because it is the interesting at this game to conquer and to keep artillery and this wasn't given at the battle.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:54 pm

I take that as Freidrich asking that he can keep his guns because that is all he commands.

Father General wrote:For now, the Union has 5 shiny new guns.

I disagree and here is my reasoning.

I'm of the view that captured cannon were probably sent to the rear areas as trophies and to be allocated to new units that were being raised. I see no way of an army in the field supplying horse teams, limbers, caissons and crews to move and crew the captured gun in the subsequent battles, in the short term at least.

So a side that captures guns will not get them added to its OOB but a side that loses them would have them taken away.

As each cannon and crew is a separate unit, why don't we, next battle, just not bring all the guns to the field in that battery? Bring only those that were not captured (we'd need confirmation from several sources on how many were lost).


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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  M.Jonah on Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Might i suggest that the guns could not necessarily be available at the next battle as Digby suggests but maybe they should be available at the battle after that.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  MajorByrd on Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:49 pm

First the side that captures the town (which was the objective) only draws because there has been an endless argument, to the enemy side exclusive, that the ridge (which they did not even hold completely) belongs to the town and is neccessarry for a "victory". Furthermore, it was supposed to be used to shell the town after the battle which I doubt would have happened in the Civil War. I understand that Hay's engine doesn't allow for a victory/draw, but I don't see why we, who took the town!, basically loose our gains, while the Confederates, which lost the town and - by argument - made the 70% of the ridge they held almost equally important. Their loss is elevated to a draw. I don't really agree and jope that the Union CC was included in the discussion.

I'm not really satisfied with the way all that went down, because like I said, if there are changes to the objective I think both sides should be included in the discussion. But alright, nobody's makin' an issue out of it right. But everything else, due to the result I suppose, is obviously up for discussion and change. I doubt we would be having this discussion if the Rebels won. Btw. the "Red Line" which restricted Rebel positioning was a good idea.

I captured 5 guns. When I charged the sixth time my guys charged an enemy regiment that was brought up. I doubt that there are "several sources". I don't see why the Union wouldn't be able to supply the neccessary equipment to field the guns in the next battle; didn't Jackson add several captured guns to his forces? There are probably people who know more about that than I do.

The guns didn't disappear, they surrendered. They should be added. They could miss a turn and be available at the battle after or something.



Last edited by MajorByrd on Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:42 am

If I were the commander, I would find a way or make a way for the guns to be brought into the fold. Even if I had to take horses from the surrounding area, which was frequently done by both sides, I would do so.

The problem we have with the guns is an OOB issue.

I haven't spoken since Hays informed me that a victory/draw wasn't possible. I don't want to deprive the Union of their gains, which they fought hard to obtain. At the same time, the Confederates had a compelling argument for remaining in good order.

I will discuss this with Hays.

We cannot have battles decided by post-game discussion or committee. We may not like the results, but they are what they are. I'm not out to pick one side over another and I'm not trying to make life miserable for one person or side over another. If anything, I'm on a learning curve. Above all, I want to be fair. For the next battle, I'll be more granular with victory conditions, whether I like it or not.

Bear in mind, there were many battles where the outcomes were not so cut and dry. One side may hold the field, but the other could be winning in another sense. Wars are not always logical affairs.

I'm sorry if I cannot always please the participants, but I would suggest nobody get too attached to the outcome of a single, early battle. Neither side is crippled or defeated and both sides have reinforcements available at the corps commanders' request.

It's ain't over, folks, so look forward, not backwards.

-Neal
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:47 am

Mr. Digby wrote:I take that as Freidrich asking that he can keep his guns because that is all he commands.

Father General wrote:For now, the Union has 5 shiny new guns.

I disagree and here is my reasoning.

I'm of the view that captured cannon were probably sent to the rear areas as trophies and to be allocated to new units that were being raised. I see no way of an army in the field supplying horse teams, limbers, caissons and crews to move and crew the captured gun in the subsequent battles, in the short term at least.

So a side that captures guns will not get them added to its OOB but a side that loses them would have them taken away.

As each cannon and crew is a separate unit, why don't we, next battle, just not bring all the guns to the field in that battery? Bring only those that were not captured (we'd need confirmation from several sources on how many were lost).


We may, at best, only be able to omit captured guns. I'll discuss with Hays.

I'm sorry if Freidrich has lost some of his guns. You have a two-fold course of action to help Friedrich.
1. Defend those guns!
2. Capture enemy guns.

Again, I have to speak to Hays regarding what to do next.
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:59 am

Quick fact:

I don't know what the result will be post-spreadsheet, but I do recall the Union lost greater numbers than the Confederates based on the end of battle screen.

Following the result, we may have very close manpower numbers on both sides with the Union really gaining only territory.

Both sides are very much in play.

I have asked Hays if a win/draw result is possible with some added effort. I'll work it out with him. But in any case, the Union won the stated objective, they shall not be deprived.

-Neal
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Mr. Digby on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:25 am

It may be practical to add a whole new battery to the Union side, inserting this into the master OOB. On the other hand, having used Hay's campaign battle calculator in a previous campaign, I don't think its possible to add any new units (whether these are guns or regiments) to the master OOB.

As Neal says, its a learning curve and what we have learned here is that we need to design a very flexible (and even somewhat ficticious) master OOB that will allow us to hopefully cover all eventualities. Extra dummy batteries need to be added to represent captured guns as well as a timeframe when these could be brought into use by the captors (after 2 days, a week? When? Umpire to decide).

Extra 'dummy' division commanders need to be inserted to make up commands for games (if practical) and even extra regiments for brigades might have a function if units are transferred or raised.

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"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: OFFICIAL RESULT Battle of New Market

Post  Father General on Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Mr. Digby wrote:It may be practical to add a whole new battery to the Union side, inserting this into the master OOB. On the other hand, having used Hay's campaign battle calculator in a previous campaign, I don't think its possible to add any new units (whether these are guns or regiments) to the master OOB.

As Neal says, its a learning curve and what we have learned here is that we need to design a very flexible (and even somewhat ficticious) master OOB that will allow us to hopefully cover all eventualities. Extra dummy batteries need to be added to represent captured guns as well as a timeframe when these could be brought into use by the captors (after 2 days, a week? When? Umpire to decide).

Extra 'dummy' division commanders need to be inserted to make up commands for games (if practical) and even extra regiments for brigades might have a function if units are transferred or raised.

I pitched this exact proposal to Hays last night. What comes of it depends on how much time, if any, he is available to work on it.

I agree with the dummy div commanders too.

I think we all agree that despite the teething troubles, we're by and large enjoying the campaign? I think it will get better once the next turn gets going. There will be a lot to think about and some tough choices!

-Neal
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