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Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:26 pm

Martin wrote:[
Charging
--------
Given my view that cavalry in the Trans-Mississippi almost never charged formed infantry, I early on decided to make them Type 1 cavalry. In theory this prevents them charging infantry but lets them say charge guns, so it was just the result I wanted. I worked with Kevin for a while testing this theory, but found that I could still get them to charge, albeit with some difficulty and a great deal of clicking!
Oops! Just realised this should have read Type 2 cavalry! Type 1 is the default-sort which charges. Sorry.

But to turn cavalry into Type 2, you do need to put a '1' in the OOB.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:52 am

Uncle Billy wrote:There is a morale minimum below which a unit will not charge. I think it is 'willing', but I am not certain.
That seems logical. However there is a wrinkle with morale on the unit display. What you see is not an absolute value, but an indicative one. I *think* it can be misleading in a couple of ways:

(a) The morale bar shows current morale against base morale in the OOB. So two units of different morale at the outset of the game might appear to be equally gung-ho. There is a limit to that I think, so if a unit starts the game with very low morale, the status bar may struggle to reach the max.

(b) If a unit has been in combat, or otherwise retreated, morale may appear to increase back to max after some time in reserve. But I don't think underlying morale does. So the unit will now be more brittle than it appears.

If that is correct, it all seems very reasonable to me.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Uncle Billy on Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:25 pm

(b) If a unit has been in combat, or otherwise retreated, morale may appear to increase back to max after some time in reserve. But I don't think underlying morale does. So the unit will now be more brittle than it appears.
I believe that is correct. The morale level set in the OOB is that maximum obtainable. The quantitative way to find the morale of a unit is to turn on dbglvl in the ini file. Check the last set of numbers that are displayed in the upper left corner of the game. They are labeled M/F, which stands for morale and fatigue. 1000 is the max value for each.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:02 pm

I've asked the resident Norbsoft cavalry expert what the 'Horsemanship' OOB trait is for. It's possible this could help us implement any changes.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  kg little mac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:11 pm

"Horsemanship: The higher a cavalry or artillery unit’s Horsemanship
rating, the faster it can wheel and change formation."

From page 77 of the manual.
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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:55 pm

kg little mac wrote:"Horsemanship: The higher a cavalry or artillery unit’s Horsemanship
rating, the faster it can wheel and change formation."

From page 77 of the manual.
Thanks for that. Should have thought to check. Won't help for speed or fatigue then.

It might be useful to set it very low for limbered guns and particularly supply wagons, which seem to turn on a sixpence at the moment.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:14 pm

When necessary, a gun team and limber could manouver at a fast canter, and if desperate even a gallop. Under fire guns could be deployed/limbered quite fast, so I would suggest not lowering artillery horsemanship unless you want to depict badly trained units.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:13 pm

Uncle Billy wrote:Here are the stock fatigue values used in the game.
UnitWalkRunChargeMelee
Infantry-2-10-12-15
Cavalry with sabers (type1)-2-9-11-45
Cavalry w/o sabers (type2)-5-12-15-20

Type 1 cavalry is just a bit more robust than infantry when running or charging. Type 2 is very much at a disadvantage to infantry when walking and only a little poorer when running. These numbers are just factors that are added to others to determine the final fatigue loss. But those other factors are the same for all types of units.

With regards to speed, both infantry and cavalry walk at 4mph. Cavalry run at 15mph and infantry at 8mph.
When I get a minute, I'm going to try playing around with these values, Kevin. I'm going to start with your suggestion of giving Type 2 cavalry the same fatigue profile as Type 1. Which game file are they in please?

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:39 pm

They are in statetables.csv.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:57 pm

Got it. Thanks.

To implement changes, can I just create a new mod with a 'Logistics' sub-folder, and drop the amended statetables.csv into it?

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:10 pm

To implement changes, can I just create a new mod with a 'Logistics' sub-folder, and drop the amended statetables.csv into it?
Yup.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:20 pm

Much obliged.

Just a thought....instead of in a mod folder, could I put the amended statetables.csv in a scenario folder (with or without a logistics sub folder) instead?

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:00 pm

Dunno.

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Idiotic Table

Post  WSH Baylor on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:43 pm

Since all know that I am computer illiterate, I was surprised and "kerflumoxed" to see two rates for the cavalry with and the cavalry without sabers! Pardon me, Martin, but that is certainly a table designed by a "mental midget" as there should be absolutely no difference between the two groups as it pertains to speed, etc. and should be ingnored. The saber, in most cases (as you undoubtedly know) hung from two leather straps attached to the M1851 Dragoon Saber Belt, and for cavalry and light artillery after 1855. The Confederates utilized very similar, if not identical, patterns as well.

I suspect that the person who determined the two differing values had never experienced performing as mounted cavalry with and without the saber and made "assumptions", which we all know what happens when we "assume" something. My suggestion: quite simply do not differentiate between the two...as there is essentially no difference. Speaking as someone who has spent many an hour in the McClellan saddle wearing the saber belt and the saber, they pose no problems (unless you are a Hollywood cavalryman wearing the saber on the "hook" while mounted resulting in a severely bruised elbow!) When worn properly, suspended by the straps when mounted and on the "hook" when dismounted, they aren't even noticable! (In fact, they were frequently carried on the straps while dismounted, hence the "drag" on the end of the scabbard.)

I guess one can file this in the FYI column, but it would be nice to see it done correctly. My recommendation is to use ONLY the best stats for the cavalry disregarding the with or w/o denotation.

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Re: Gettysburg - cavalry speed & fatigue

Post  Martin on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:18 pm

It is very odd, and I'm kerflummoxed too, Jack. A rather worrying development, I'm sure you'll agree Very Happy

When I get time, I will post a question on the NSD forum if no-one else does it first. The preciseness of the figures used for the different cavalry types suggests that some thought went into it, and it would be interesting to plug into that, even if we do not ultimately agree.

Assuming we do end up with one set of fatigue penalties, there is still the question of what they should be. That will no doubt require testing.

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